Weekly Scrap #229 - Ben Fleagle: Warrior, Poet, FOOL

Corley: Alright everyone, the scrap will be starting soon. And while everybody's logging in, while we're getting ready with the guests, I wanted to talk. About this, the V50. Lots of people have heard about it. The V50. I am very, very proud of this. It started out A few years ago as a journaling project that I did for myself and then I shared it with the vigilantes. And over 70 vigilantes did the first trial run as we did it together. And then they helped Edit and revise it and form it into what it is now, the V50 that you currently know. All about conquering yourself. And it really is. The V50 is about this right here. It is body, mind, soul, and goals. Body, mind, soul, and goals. You set goals for yourself each and every day. The system is built in where you can set up each day that you want to set up. And then you prove to yourself that you are who you say you are. It's the V50 commitment. I'm super proud of it. You do it for a 50-day commitment, a 50-day commitment of the V50. Body, mind, soul, and goals. And you prove to yourself that you have the ability to set goals and then crush those goals. Proving to yourself you are. Who you say you are. It's a great way to build confidence. It's a great way to be a more effective person So I'm super proud of it. The body, mind, soul, and goals. It's all explained in the front of the book and there's instructions All about conquering yourself. You can see this is a scoring page from Deep In It As I as I traveled through the V50 at the end of last year. I'm now in my third iteration of doing the V50 And it will make you it will form habits for you, it will it will make you a more effective person if you are willing to take on the commitment and complete the commitment. So I'm excited about it. I wanted to share it. The V50, Conquer Yourself, you can find it. On FirehouseVigilance. com, of course the Vigilantes can find it in the Vigilantis Wagshop. V50. Conquer yourself Go get yourself one. Make the commitment. Make the make the commitment with your crew, your shift, your battalion. It's it is powerful.

Corley: It will make you a more effective person and I wanted to share it. So there you go. V50. Now let's get ready for the scrap. Starting soon. Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 229. My guest tonight is Ben Flagel. First, he was a Marine. Then, after that, he joined the fire service in 1990, started in Southern California, and then moved to Alaska In 2003, Ben co-founded The Farthest North Fools, which is the oldest Fools chapter in the 49th state In 2015, Ben was asked to join the Fool's International, and in January of 2020, he became the fourth president of the Fool's International and is currently continuing to serve in that capacity. He's married to his wife, Paula, of 29 years, and together they have four children. He has the search, the papers, the recognition. He has the passion for leadership. He is an avid proponent of mentoring and leadership development I am being honest when I say there is so much that I could keep saying about what this man has been up to for the last three three plus decades. But let's get to it. It is my absolute pleasure to have you on as the guest of weekly scrap number 229. Welcome, my brother, Ben Flagle.

Ben Flagel: Thank you, sir. It's an honor to be here. Corley: I am really excited about tonight's episode. Is there anything I missed in the intro? Anything you would like to add or touch on? Ben Flagel: No, other than you know, I've been at University Fire for 22 years now and and a shout out to those folks. They are wonderful to work with and I I would be remiss if I did not highlight them for just a brief moment. Corley: Right on, right on. Audience, please get your questions primed and ready. Sam will be pulling them out of the audience tonight We are going to have some fun. Now let's talk about those beautiful sponsors. The ones I love them. The OG sponsor of the scrap, Keyhose. Check them out online at Keyhos. com and follow them on Facebook. And of course, there is the affordable drill tower. It is firefighter owned and operated. The only thing that you can't do on an affordable drill tower is live fire. Affordable drill tower. You can repel, stretch hose lines, go through the stairs, go through the floor, do window bailouts, cut holes in the roof crops, use the apartment balconies pump to the FDC or flow water from the sprinkler system Call Steve or Dennis at 844-55TOWER or drop an email to info at affordable drilltowers. com Firefighter safety and accountability starts with being able to quickly find and identify individual firefighters operating on the fire ground. Identifier Safety combines the best in photoluminescent materials for durable firefighter identification solutions that can glow for up to 20 hours with no switches, no batteries, which means you can Rapidly identify firefighters by name, unit, or assignment, even under hot fire conditions. All specifically designed and tested for the rigors of the job. Be seen on scene. Identifiersafety. com. And with that. We are ready for the scrap. So, my brother, I want to kick it off with, I am not here for me. We are here for we and we are here for them. Talk to me about this phrase, what it means to you.

Ben Flagel: that has been my mantra for a very long time. Back when the internet internet was a brand new thing. I was fishing around. I don't know what I was doing, but I I found that statement on the internet and it was Unknown is what it said as far as the author. And I just started using it and it it grew its heaviest use was when I started training recruits for the department And of course recruits go elsewhere and they take take sayings with them and it's it's grown. I I I get a lot of credit for it, but I did not come up with it. I just fell in love with it And the thing about it is that it captures perfectly the whole struggle that we have in the fire service. of remembering why we're here and why we should be training and and why you stay extra without complaining for the guy that didn't make it in why you make the coffee again even though you made it last time and you're wondering if anybody is gonna pull their weight All those things tie into supporting the team, setting yourself aside so that the team can function efficiently and be there for them. because they are the most important, regardless of who they are. When we call, when they're when we are called, we go. And the team has to be intact for that to be. And for the team to be intact, we have to set our personal desires aside much of the time. So that is my mantra.

Corley: I love it, brother. I absolutely love it. And the thing is, is I've I've I've heard it over and over and over many times and I never quite knew what and I know you say you didn't write it and things like that, but I never knew what quite got its traction in the American Fire Service and got it spreading because I've heard it many times. Ben Flagel: I think I think it got spreading because several of the guys that worked at the academy with me and some of the students at that time became very influential in training in Anchorage Fire Department. Corley: Okay. Ben Flagel: And they in turn got to know Aaron Fields really well And then he began pushing it and and it just it spread from there. Absolutely. I had phone calls from all over the country asking permission to use it, and I can't I can't tell people no because I didn't make it up. Corley: Right on. Right on. No, I love it, man. And that you never know what kind of influence something will have When you're passionate about anything, I'm going to check in with the audience and say we've got people checking in from Florida. Let's go. From Daniel Grimes, Stephen McCaffrey, the Porterville Fire Department is ready. Let's go. Awesome to see you here, Bull Ye-ee, let's roll from Bradley Valiant Court. Brandon Warks said, oh captain, my captain, he may know ya. He does, he does Dave Dimar says checking in from Northern Michigan. Good evening. The mustache is fire from Nicholas Gwynn. Stephen. Oh yeah, he said the Ville notebooks are out. Bring it. Rob Fisher says, one of the best, most humble leaders in the American Fire Service, the warrior poet, good friend and brother, a great leader. Love your brother. So there we go. We got a lot coming after you. Or a lot of hype here.

Ben Flagel: Yeah, my cheeks are getting hot. Corley: TJRD said I didn't come up with it. I just fell in love with it. That is a great line. So he's quoting absolutely. All right, there we go. We got tons. What's up, Ben? Jake from Lake Area Fools. Hi, Dad. Coming from Faith Flagle. Hello, checking in from Alberta. All right, we got a ton, man. It's exciting. I'm excited. Warrior poets Let's let's get right to the meat of of what what like what in your own words one of the most important things but we're your poets talk to me about the fools Ben Flagel: Well, we started the the name Warrior Poets was first associated with us, as far as I know, at the 2008 Fool's Convention in Seattle Bobby Halton was the keynote speaker, and if you if you ever heard Bobby Halton speak, you know that you had to step back. You might have to put up a spit shield because he he just got so intense and he had the whole room rocking. And his whole point was that our focus on tradition and history and and brotherhood made us the warrior poets. And And I just kind of, I felt like that is really our role. You know, nowadays everybody is taking their chapter and creating a training company. And that's good. We need that, especially in light of David Rhodes' recent article about small conferences and supporting the little training actions. But the fools from at least from the Alaskan point of view It connects the nation of firefighters in a way that is deeper than the internet ever could. And it enables the smallest department member to have a connection with people from huge cities and to to cross-culturally blend and And that's done through the fools. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other ways, but we launched a rocket and just propelled it through the nation. I should say the founding fools did, not myself, but it is it is certainly we as in every chapter's duty to push the the spirit of the fire service. And and I'm kind of an extremist. I I believe in setting yourself aside to such a to such an extent that I have been called by d by people that weren't weren't so thrilled with my behavior. they they kind of felt like it's it's the focus is on me when in reality what I'm trying to do is capture people's attention so that they can hear my message.

Ben Flagel: And if I have to be charismatic to do that, I will. Because I do believe we should we should be the last ones standing when our country is pulling itself apart over political issues and hate and race and religion and all the things that we're hearing about daily on on social media that make us Divided? Yeah, fear for our country's safety. I truly believe that we should be the last ones standing without without giving our opinions, holding society together. Corley: Oh, I like that. It's powerful. Ben Flagel: I believe it. Corley: No, I love it. The fools, where they've been, where they're at, where they want to go, where you want them to go. Ben Flagel: Well, it's been the subject of so much debate, but That connection, that that spirit of the fire service is what drew me in. If you talk with the founding fools and there's been recently there's been some great discussions with Walt and Bart and and others on social media that you can hunt down. But they're they're intent in creating the fools It was really just the joy of being together. They went to training events together. They some of them worked together. They were mentoring each other. And it just grew out of a backyard bar. And they never anticipated that it would become what it is, but the thing that has made it grow is that every firefighter in the nation is welcome. It's not particular to volunteers or just for paid guys. It's not particular to African-American firefighters. It's not particular to white firefighters. It is open to all firefighters, male and female, even though it's fraternal. And while training has become the hyper focus in the past decade It's it's it excelled at gathering all those different types together and making them all feel like valid firefighters And I point to Captain Dugan when I talk about this because Captain Dugan is the one that said that all it matters is those two eyes in the map. You're coming down the dark hallway with me and I can see those two eyes in the mask. That's what matters. I don't care if you're male, female, black or white, Native American, Indian, it doesn't matter. Two eyes in the mask, that's what matters. And that's the fool's attitude. And I believe in perpetuating that. I think it's more important than ever.

Ben Flagel: And while the training aspect of the fools and it's it just naturally flows together with the brotherhood. The love of the fire service and setting the example is far more important And I think we have to not lose that. And the problem with it is we're talking about intangibles, things that are hard to grasp. Corley: Right, right. Ben Flagel: It just blossoms when someone dies. It it it explodes when someone comes down with cancer. And people suddenly go, wow, the brotherhood was intense at that moment. But when all things are good, when you're making a fat paycheck in a sleepy little town that's Full of wealthy people and you hardly ever have a fire and nobody ever suffers. Brotherhood is scarce. If you're down in in the the South Bronx in the 70s In the war years, you understood what Brotherhood was about. And how do we convey those things to people that have not yet been tested? So they don't understand how important it is to set themselves aside. Right. Put their brother or sister first. And the the fools generally have that experience and that's what they should be transferring to the young generation. And I think it's critical. I really do.

Corley: No, that's beautifully, beautifully well said. Especially the how do you transfer that which hasn't been experienced? You know, is it such a Great thing to contemplate. Do you see that? man, there's so many directions to go. I'm sorry. I love it. I love the fools, man. I really do. In fact, the fools is one of my first exposures to people who were passionate about being firefighters. just just just not just the training aspect which is which has been there in all my experience with the fools but just It's okay to love this job. It's okay to be excited. Ben Flagel: That's exactly it. Bart Simpson said it just the other night. on that leadership perspectives podcast they did is I'm not gonna apologize for enjoying this job and loving a red rig and enjoying the the grinder wailing through the night. I love those things. I'll always love them. Right on. At thirty-two years of fire service, I shut my siren off as often as possible. But Corley: No, I love it. And you heard it here. Fire trucks are supposed to be red. Ben Flagel: That's right. That's right. Corley: Just getting that on the record. Getting it on the record. Okay, we we can come back and please anybody have any questions they want to ask about the fool's training warrior poets All of it. Just please post them. Sam is there to grab the questions. I want to move to leadership, though. It's one of my favorite topics to discuss. And I know that you are very, very, very passionate about leadership, mentoring. In fact, you've studied it quite a bit. So I don't know where I want to start. Broad topic. Let's say you've dedicated your patch to it. It is A quote you sent me was it's one thing to study leadership, but quite another to apply it successfully. So I'll start there and let you just go whichever direction you want to go.

Ben Flagel: Okay, well the first thing on my mind is is I I think very rarely do poor leaders mean to be poor leaders. I think we all set out to do a good job. And And I've known people that have in-depth knowledge about leadership, but they're unable to apply it. And it's because they're unable to separate their emotions. from the skills that are developed to lead people. And and and I include myself in that. Sure. Train wrecked so many efforts. where I walked away just going, man, I I I blew that bad because I lost my temper or I said the wrong thing or I was not careful with my character. I think character Which you you mentioned in the advertisement for tonight. Characters huge. And you can you are born with honor. And only you can give your honor away. That cannot be taken from you And and I I I think leaders forget that as they get embroiled in the intensity of the job. Of leadership. It's if you're if you're really good as a firefighter, say you're the best guy on the tip, best guy on the truck, whatever, and that's why you get promoted, which we all know regardless of what is what we'd like to think. We all know that that has a lot to do with how you get promoted. Sure. That that does not a leader make And the leadership over me when I was a young proby and in the Marine Corps, a lot of it was b badly affected by the Vietnam era.

Corley: Right. Ben Flagel: We were told you'll do it because I said you'll do it. Right. Just shut up and sit down and Those things left a void of leadership mentoring and learning. So if you encountered a good leader, it was because they were an exceptional person and trying very hard. to be different. And it has taken, I think, most of my career to assemble all the lessons that I wanted to figure out where where I wanted to go with leadership. And a lot of my years as a company officer, I was bumping around trying to find out what worked best. Right And that caused a lot of hiccups and bumps and hurt feelings. There's one poor sap that I don't think he'll ever forgive me. Corley: Go ahead. Sorry, I keep stepping on it. Go ahead. Ben Flagel: But I think the key to success is is being open to critique Allow people to say, hey, that wasn't right. I'll give a perfect example of that. I had scheduled this young man to be on the truck And or no, he was supposed to be on the ambulance is where it was. And there was a problem, so I moved him to the truck. And then in the middle of the night The tones went off and he wasn't getting up. I could tell he wasn't getting up because I was one of those officers that kind of slept half awake all the time. And I still have that problem So I knew he wasn't going out to the to the ambulance and I came out in the hallway and I lit him up and the poor kid ran, grabbed his pants and took off for the ambulance, got in the box and disappeared And I went back to bed. And then the next morning there was a gentle knock and the lieutenant explained to me that Cap, you assigned him to the truck because of this issue and that issue, and you you didn't want him on the handle. And you know, I learned a long time ago that when you make mistakes, the fastest way to recover is to say you're right. I I need to own that and apologize for it. And at times you need to ask for forgiveness, to be quite honest. And if you do those things, Your mistakes actually become a reservoir of respect as long as you don't repeat them a lot.

Ben Flagel: People begin to go, wow, he's different. He is willing to be human and admit his flaws. And I think I might trust him. And character and trust are the foundation of a good leader. Because in order to get people to follow us, beyond what our rank demands, they have to trust you. And there's two different types of trust. There's There's your skill trust, that trust that's cognitive and people know yeah, Cap can swing an axe. He knows the roof. We'll never get tru we'll never get trapped on the roof with Cap with us If that's the basis of the trust, that's a good thing. But that does not mean they'll trust you at the kitchen table. That's effective trust. And effective trust is not necessarily going to mean that you're good with tools. You may be that captain that everybody loves And they'll tell you they're they'll they'll pour their heart out to you and turn their back on you and hand you the dagger because they know you won't use it. But If you could just step back and let us handle the hose line, that'd be great. Because then because maybe that person doesn't have the skills. So the best leader is someone who who has skills enough to gain trust as far as he's not going to get us in a better. bad situation. He's going to guide us and we're going to come home safe. And also has developed the affective side of trust where they they know they can trust him In and out of the firehouse, in and out of the fire, off duty, on duty. This guy will be my leader and my friend Or if not my friend, at least he will respect me and treat me with dignity no matter where we go. Therefore I am with that person.

Corley: No, I like it. I want to dig in and ask, like, because you mentioned the two spectrums, the cognitive trust and the effective trust. Is there a A point of is there one that one without the I obviously if you have both it's it's the it's the rock star it's the leader you want, right? But if there's one that's lacking, is there I don't know quite the question I'm trying to ask Can you can you be an effective effective can you build effective trust if you're incompetent is what I basically asking. Ben Flagel: I think we've all known officers that Everybody enjoyed being around and felt comfortable with. But But we're not known for being Just not on the fire ground. Right. Yeah. I mean, I I think that that can go hand in hand. But the more The more intense the battleground is, if you're downtown Chicago, that's not the best combination. That's not acceptable necessarily. If you know what I mean. Sure, sure. It's going to affect your leadership. You've got to be competent. Competency build the trust. So I think it can work. I don't think it's a good thing. Corley: Okay. Okay. No, I just wanted to I wanted to get some clarification 'cause I love I love talking the the theory, the concepts, and then then trying to do the application, like you said, is is sometimes the tough part of it. all right, we got tons of questions coming at you from the audience. Are you ready for your first one coming from the audience?

Ben Flagel: Sure. Corley: Brandon Wark wants to know, I can't think of any other organization that is on the cutting edge of mentoring the emerging workforce. How do you do it? How do you maintain relevance to the emerging recruits? Ben Flagel: You know, the the brothers and sisters I work with as officers in our department. What what Brandon is referring to is he is an alumni of our department. Our department, like most departments in Fairbanks, operates with people that are 25 and younger. there certainly is no age limit, but that's just the crowd that comes here to work. And as soon as they get a little experience under their belt, and in our case when they've completed their college degree, they move off and they go elsewhere. But we are fighting every fire in this town with very young people. And we're not just tramped on we're not just trapped on campus and the volleys don't just stay in the hills. Everybody works together. And so any young person that gets on the job in this town is is they're not just checking extinguisher tags. They are in the mix. Right. And so the the brothers and sisters that I work with that stay A lot of them are mentored and developed from those young people. And that's an ongoing process. And I I think the key is that it just never stops. We are We're aware that the young people change in the in the way they learn, and we've been rapidly changing our approach to them so that we don't alienate them. Right. The department I work for is nothing like what it was many years ago. And you know, a perfect illustration of that is I encountered the wife of a firefighter we had back in the early 2000s who was an alcoholic. And in those days, you'd get up in the station in the morning and and the fire station would be a little wrecked from the guys that came running through partying all night and and you'd try I I learned that didn't jive well with the the marine in me I wanted order in the firehouse. And but I learned that the the people that had hired me were in the habit of protecting and hiding this stuff because they didn't want the powers it be to know it was taking place. And that was the wrong response.

Ben Flagel: And this young lady, her her husband, is still an alcoholic. And she's she's been with him since those days and her question for me, we were at a a wellness firefighter mental health conference and she's a because of her husband she's involved in counseling and we just bumped into each other and and she said why did you guys make it worse and I I said what do you mean and And she said, well, you know, all the parties and the you know gambling that went on off duty and and she described the old atmosphere. Sure. And I knew she was absolutely telling the truth. I I wasn't the one. That's not my style. I wouldn't have done that, but I know that that happened. Corley: Right. Ben Flagel: And I I could do nothing but own it and apologize to her, but I was able to say if if your husband was with us now, we would protect his job while getting him help. Because now we know how to get him help. We know that we don't need to hide the alcoholism or or whatever the problem might be. Corley: Sure. Ben Flagel: We've learned through hard knocks that we have to change that. Right. And along with that, because the younger generation has been taught differently. We can't go running through the firehouse creating havoc and calling them rough names. As a Marine, I would I'm very familiar with how to harass people. And it's taken a lot of effort to get that out of my system because the first thing I want to do is be sarcastic, then I want to knife hand them, and then I want to really harass them when they're they're not doing what I want them to do. And that is not valid to these people. They will just pick up and leave. They They have a whole different mindset when it comes to whether they're going to be loyal to an organization. And if you're trying to lead the old way, the brutal way, And the way of do as I say, not as I do, you will fail with these young people because they're not wired the way we were back then.

Corley: Right on. No. Jay Jorgen wants to know, working in cold climates, do you run wet pumps and recirculate water or do you keep them dry? Ben Flagel: Some run them dry. University runs them wet and we circulate. They idle all the time when they're outside and there's a price to that. There's a lot of pump hours. And the way the manufacturers have learned to insulate our pumps, we have a heat box underneath. So if you look at one of our trucks, there there's a a We just call it a heat box. It's a tin box down below that encapsulates the drains. the whole pump and everything that hangs low and it and it usually the heaters are down there pushing the air up towards the the pump itself So they've gotten so good at doing what we've asked them to do on those rigs that we can practically boil water in our tank now if we're not careful So we do it. Corley: No, that's awesome. Derek Ike says, yes, love the job. I mean it's the best job in the world. How do you combat the negativity within the department by members that don't have the same heart? I'm sure you've never had this question before. But I would like to hear the answer nonetheless, and so would everybody else, I'm sure.

Ben Flagel: the negativity is never gonna go away. And Galliano's been after me to write about resilience. And this has a lot to that this part of that question has a lot to do with why he wants me to write it. But It it tears your gut out to come to work for 20 years and have the same people calling you a fool for believing in this stuff and and loving your job so much. And a lot of it has to do with am I am I gonna outlast this person? Is this department where I want to invest and fight this fight? Because I'm gonna have to fight it wherever I go, or I will have to change and become like them And I don't intend to change. I will always put firefighters first so that I can build that team so that we can serve the people. And I so I'm not gonna change that. So where do I want to auger in and fight that fight? And you surround yourself with people that have a like mind. And that's where the fools come in. That's why I became a fool. I was at the Fire Academy in Emmitsburg. In 2002, and there's this guy, his name was Shad, and he was from South Metro Fools. or Charlotte Metro Fools and he had a t-shirt on you know with the fools logo and and I said what fools what is that all about And in a in a way that said, wouldn't you wouldn't you like to know? He said, well, why don't you go find out? And and it was he said it in such a way that I knew I wouldn't be disappointed. If I did that. So I got into AOL or whatever that archaic first generation internet search engine was. And I found the the mission statement of the fools. And I just I thought that's my heart. That's me. And this is the friend that will help me get through that negativity. And I went back home and we started building a chapter. And in 2020 I went back to the National Fire Academy For the first time since then and I and at that moment I had just become the president and I thought that was actually pretty cool.

Corley: No, that is man. That is. Ben Flagel: But to to answer more specifically And this might be sound kind of eight ball, I guess, but don't be offended. Give them another cheek. You want to hit this one? I'll give you this one too. Because far be it from me to be offended by my brother, if I don't have to be I understand that you just don't have the same values as I do. And and give them the dagger if they're gonna stick it in your back. Particularly if you like the guy. Just be like, you know, I I love this department. I love working with you guys. And I'm sorry you and I can't see it eye to eye. They will stick that dagger in your back if they get a chance, if you've chosen the wrong person. But my point is you have to live it if you expect people to believe in it. And we're talking about intangible things. Brotherhood and sisterhood, the whole fraternal process is false unless we live it. And I've always said that it's it's really easy to slap a fool's shirt on and go to the fool's night out and have a bunch of beers and and wear your leather helmet. Anybody can do that Being a fool on the job when the when your supervisor is tearing your your trousers apart because you failed, your team failed for whatever reason that's the the time to be a fool. That's the time to step up and defend your people and take it in the shorts on their behalf. That's when you have to go back to them and find a way to tell them that they messed up without Without making them feel belittled, but building them up at the same time. To be that person, you have to study leadership. You have to be an intentional leader And I think that's that's how you survive, is you come in every day with an intentional method of how you're going to maneuver through this department that does not respect what you believe

Corley: I gotta make notes and I got a timestamp, so please bear with me. Too many solid, solid timestamps. live it if you ever expect them to believe it. I love that, man. I absolutely love that. Stephen McCaffrey asks, the glue of our forefathers' fire service was the social belonging, hanging out, dances, socials, etc. What this generation craves, what this generation's fire service is a little deficient in these days, how have you been able to bring that back? Or yeah, basically, what's your thoughts on bringing it back? Ben Flagel: Well, the chapter that I belong to, the chapter I helped found, we we were gifted with some party animals and they were very good at drawing people together. I'm not a party guy I'm not a heavy drinker. It's hilarious that I'm the president of the fools because I have this group of people have taken me into places that I normally wouldn't go just because I'm more likely to pick up a book and and go sit in a comfortable chair than I am to go chasing a bagpipe down a hotel hallway at 3 a. m. with a security guard running behind me. But I find myself in these situations And I and you know the fools are the first to admit that they at times the reputation has gotten in the wrong direction, though that we're just a a drinking group. That's not the truth The point of it is to gather people together and dare to stand out a little bit. Be proud of your logo. And and not to be afraid to say, I do love this job, and draw those young people in to tell them about the job. There's Beer it is involved because it it helps people relax that otherwise won't step forward But it shouldn't always have to be there.

Corley: Sure. Ben Flagel: And and you know, the founding fools are going to be the first to say that. So creating events where these things can happen. If you have a a local conference, a local training event Strive to always have a brotherhood event afterwards. And it's it doesn't need to be a a a time of getting so drunk that you can't see on your way out the door. That's not the point of it. The point of it is you make a stack of fire helmets and you gawk and awe and geek out over somebody's pain job on their helmet and you you listen to what people have to say. I I think I think the key for leadership among the chapters Or even if you're not a fool and you're just involved in these kind of events, is to draw people in and listen to everyone that comes if you can. Someone should be devoted to just circulating through the event and may you know say your events you know cutting roofs You got five roofs and a hundred guys there. One person should be dedicated to making sure that everybody gets a turn. Everybody is learning. Everybody is recognized. I see you. Oh, I like the logo on your shirt. Where you work, oh wow, if next time I go through there, I'll have to check that department out. It's it's it's so important to let people know that they have been seen and that you respect them And that's what the founders did to me.

Corley: Right on. Ben Flagel: I was just a guy from Fairbanks, Alaska. Took me 18 hours to reach the convention. And I'm sitting on a curb with Mike Dugan and he is sharing his heart with me. And I didn't think he realized who I was. I said, you don't, you don't You don't know me like you think you do. You've had a little too much. And he goes, no, I I know exactly who you are. You came all the way from Alaska to sit here with me. And Simple moments like that will draw people in. It authenticates them. It lets them know that your service is important to me. And you'll have them. They will come. Corley: Scott Hoke said the fools are kind of like the Masonic Lodge for the fire service is how I'm hearing it. He's saying that from a I guess I don't want to say, but just not knowing. So I'm giving you a chance to explain like in your own words, explain explain them in a elevator pitch to anybody who doesn't know what the fools are. I think I think most everybody in here does, but go ahead. Ben Flagel: I just got a low battery warning, so I'm going to hook that up while I talk. Go for it. So We are exactly that. I think a lot of unions have filled that role in the past. But I'm sure this sounds hilarious. Me rattling around.

Corley: It's a scrap. You're good, brother. This is how we do it. Ben Flagel: But the fools have taken in the modern world where the the firehouse with the barn lit up and the party going on with the whole the whole township there, those things are fading away and the fools have stepped up and taken that roll on. And we do have some rituals and we we do honor people among us that That we can point to and say this is this is the kind of character I'm talking about that you should develop in yourself. This is what we view as the American firefighter. And and the The characteristics we value. Captain Dugan is like that. Mike Staling's Mike Gilbert. The founding fools are the most humble people. I've ever met. And all almost all of them are six foot five, I think. I'm gonna plug this in. Corley: You got it, brother. And there's no doubt when it comes to Mike Dugan. I will say while you're plugging in, one of my greatest evenings I've ever spent was at a restaurant sitting at the end of a table with Mike Dugan while he told stories and all of us were gathered around in awe. And it wasn't he wasn't like it wasn't a look at me session or anything like that. He was literally just just a It was it if you were there, it was magical. It was amazing. So I yes, I love to I you just took me back there with your story of sitting on the curb. So Still more questions coming at you. I like this one. John Velez Jr. wants to know what's the big this is you can go any direction you want, what's the biggest lesson you have learned in leadership during your career? A nice soft toss.

Ben Flagel: you know, I think the one of the toughest lessons I've learned Is to create an environment. It's the duty of the team leader to create an environment where the subordinate can come in And go, what the hell? What what were you doing? Why did you do that? I don't understand. I'm angry at you, or I'm angry at the department, or I'm angry at that guy over there, and just rant and not be afraid of you tearing them apart. And that takes courage because they may critique your character, they may critique your courage they they might critique your honor. And and this happened to me and because I realized it was happening, because I'd studied the idea of that type of environment. I let it happen. And the four days I was off duty, I I scoured my soul and thought, how am I failing this person? I didn't think I was doing it. You know, what am I doing wrong? And when I came in the next tour, it was no big deal. You know, Chief, I'm sorry that conversation didn't go so well. I was mad about something totally different And I I apologize. And I'm like, ah, no big deal. But I'm thinking, whoo, you know, that was rough. Right. If I had lashed out, and I'm not saying I'm not saying that we allow them to Be disrespectful.

Corley: Right. Ben Flagel: That's what I'm saying is that you allow them the voice that they need to get it out. And in the process, you might hear some magical answers to problems you're all dealing with, or you might hear a perspective you have not thought of before. And particularly in dealing with women firefighters. I learned from women in the fire service that sometimes what they would like is for you just to say, wow, I I hear you, and that must have been really, really hard for you. I'm sorry that happened. What what is it that I can do to fix this? Corley: Yeah. Ben Flagel: And yeah. No, and what That can apply to the guy that's about to retire, that everybody can't wait till he leaves. Because he's just so mad all the time. And it might just be that the change is overwhelming him and he can't think fast enough to feel comfortable anymore. And so you just take it and and you your authority, your rank, your character, and your and the respect they have for you is why you should not feel afraid as they do that because when the dust settles it'll be alright they'll they will follow you that much more I think Because you handled it well. You handled their wrath well. And that not not every employee is gonna ask that of you, but there are some employees that will. And I think You need to be able to do that for them.

Corley: No, I love it. The vulnerability, the communication, and like you you're talking about psychological safety, which I know you did a whole study on that, the EFO, which I read the c you know, I haven't I haven't read the entire document, I won't lie to you. But the the takeaways and the The end, yes. especially when it comes to the females. And and and it's just those aren't things you think of when you think of the traditional fire service, the rub some dirt on it. screaming drill sergeant style Vietnam era command and control style leadership that we've are growing out of, I don't know, or or or evolving away from. I don't know the right way to say it. Ben Flagel: I I think we we learn we need to learn to finesse it more There is still a place, like I told you in my response to you, there's still a place for John Wayne and Gary Cooper. You need to develop that part of you that is courageous and willing to stand in the gap and say, not on my shift, this is not happening. But that especially at the level that I'm at as a chief officer, those moments should be few and far between and you have to protect your credibility. So you can't do it a lot It has when you do it, everybody needs to stop and just go, I think I'll go to my dorm room because Chief's mad. And and that's okay. It's okay for them to realize they pushed too far That should be really rare. And if it happens on the fire ground, they need to respond immediately. So if you're screaming all the time You're you're not you're not cultivating that in them. Instead you're cultivating in them the habit to ignore you because they're tired of hearing you. Yeah, so I think I think the the greater rank you have, the more authority you have, the the more calm and quiet you should be. And for a major head, that has not been easy And I don't know, you would have to ask the people I work with. I don't know that I've achieved it yet. I try. Right. And some sometimes I try too hard and I realize, oh, I should have, I should have lit up and corrected somebody just now. But I've worked so hard at taming the beast, sometimes it's hard to reverse the process.

Corley: Yeah, the realization comes later that, oh wait a second, I let that opportunity slip by. Now it's not even appropriate. Ben Flagel: Yeah. Corley: No, I love it. I absolutely love that. Because this is something for me because I love leadership. I love reading about it, studying it. The study of it, especially like you said, that's why I love the quote. The application is so tough. Because leadership is hard It is it is hard. It's grueling and and you can you can do everything that that you've done and studied and and still not see the fruits of your labor, but you still have to do it. You know, and that's the thing that that that a lot of times they don't tell you in some of the leadership books is it's just that's just it. Ben Flagel: The if the ifs em manual says nothing about this. Right. It really doesn't. Group dynamics is not a is not an answer to it and business leadership is different from what we do. Right. If anything, we're more like the military, yet we're not military. And so you can't just slap all the military applications to our job either. It's unique in so many ways. So I do borrow from my my passion for military history and my Marine Corps experience a lot, but that that doesn't mean that I think it all fits.

Corley: Right. Ben Flagel: And when I was writing in the years that I wrote on my blog, I would often bring up different marine leaders or experiences that I I thought were applicable to the firehouse. But if it If it doesn't apply in in the in the job, then I don't bring it up. Corley: Beautiful. Oh, here we go. Going through them How would you go about, this comes from Scott Hoke again, how would you go about opening the eyes of someone that believes they're a leader when in reality they're just a boss? How do you punch through that self-deception, man? I almost Ben Flagel: I'm pretty sure I nearly got killed trying to do that one time. excuse me. None of the things we're talking about happen quickly. The things we're talking about take time. And for you to To successfully achieve what you're trying to do, you have to live it. You have to be consistent and soft-spoken. until until the time is right to raise your voice. In other words, you need to cultivate in the person you're struggling with At least I respect that you know how to do your job and that you know how to follow orders. And and then You might open a window and be able to say, look, boss, I I respect your years in the fire service. I respect your knowledge, and you've been on a lot of lot more jobs than me But things aren't you know things aren't the way they used to be and you can start the conversation from there and you might have your ass handed to you but don't take offense I think I had an interaction with one of my battalion chiefs as a captain. And I still never felt like he understood me But I began to understand him so well. I saw that his anger came from the rapid change that was taking place over the past decade. And he couldn't, he just couldn't be patient with it. And and he he loved our department so much. And he loved the fire service so much he couldn't, at times he just couldn't bear to see the young people, me and others, making changes to what he loved so much. So once I began to understand that, I began to get more patient with him. And that was really the key. And in the end, I think I think we parted when he retired as good friends.

Ben Flagel: And I still enjoy seeing him come in the firehouse and we I miss him actually. He he was difficult to work for at times. But it's because he loved the job so much. Right. Things had he'd been a firefighter much longer than me. Since I became a firefighter in the 90s, 30 years, things have drastically changed. The rules have changed. How people obey you has changed. You you just can't do it the same way anymore. So these people that are stuck in boss world instead of in leader world have haven't educated themselves about those changes. And you have to take a little risk to educate them. And you you may get burnt a couple times, but your consistency, your knowledge of the job that you're being asked to do, your willingness to protect their reputation and and obey the rules when it's appropriate and And there you should when you object to their leadership, it should be at the right time and only you're gonna know the right time. Corley: Right No, Rob Fisher said, sadly, it takes time and developing a relationship with the boss so you can be heard. Don't ruin the opportunity. Don't push too hard too quick.

Ben Flagel: Absolutely. And I I did that a couple of times. Corley: I think we all I think we all have it in in various okay. Yeah, and No, absolutely. Don't 10 pounds of pressure, I think. Something about 10 pounds of pressure at a certain percentage of the time, which I think is 100%. Rob Fisher wants to know question if you could go back in time in your career Would you do anything differently? Speaking of Rob Fisher. Ben Flagel: for a long time, being in a small town, for a long time I I was Just like the the young people working for me, there's this nagging itch. Maybe I should be in a bigger department. I want to be in the big department And I started off in a large department. but for reasons I didn't plan, I just ended up in Alaska and boy my wife looked at me one day and she goes if anything happens to you I'm I'm not going back and I thought well I guess we're here and I made a life and every once in a while that would Nag at me. So I would put myself in situations, the fools being one, and and other opportunities that would come along where I could measure my abilities against people that were completely out of our comfort zone in this town. And And after a while, after enough interaction with those with those other groups, I I began to realize I didn't need to worry. I'd made my mark and The mark was recognized with firefighters from all over the country and I could relax. So I don't think I regret it. But for a while I was wondering if I did.

Corley: Right. Well, I love it. Great question, Rob. Chuck Henness wants to know, along with people just being willing to up and leave, talking about your comment about the younger generations that you know you treat them that way, they just leave. in your opinion, do you see an erosion in the Brotherhood? Ben Flagel: yes, because there's a lot of social reasons. in the United States that are making it difficult for the Brotherhood to be as relaxed and nonchalant and take itself for granted like it used to. You you just can't behave the way that we used to. And that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. It just pushes us to be A higher quality individual. But among the younger ones, they especially the past five years They're not as accustomed to being around each other and around people like us, older mentoring types, loud. m bristly mustaches and growling up and down the hallway about someone left the trash in the bathroom, what the you know That's it's not something they're accustomed to unless they've been on a football team maybe or hockey or you know so you have to cultivate an understanding of what brotherhood and and sisterhood is. And especially with those who do not fit the stereotypical brother You have to learn to finesse your words, not so that you can fool them, but so that you can help them perceive your meaning. There are women out there, for example, that like they understand what it means to be called a fireman and it's an honor to them. I'm not gonna if there's a guy that just comes in and punches the clock, I'm never gonna refer to him as a fireman. He's just a firefighter that happens to get a paycheck for doing the job. But I will call a woman a fireman. to honor them because it's a title that that means you get it you you know the job and you seek the job

Corley: Draw it all. Ben Flagel: But not every woman is gonna take it that way. Corley: Right. Ben Flagel: And learning to finesse those things so that you don't alienate the people that you're trying to draw in is important. And and I do think it's harder for the younger generation to understand self-sacrifice. We gotta remember that we The older members of the crowd that we hang with, we were raised by World War II and Vietnam veterans, and they understood it. They grew up in a world of fraternity and and brotherhood. And I'm not saying they were all that way, but Many of those in the fire service understood that and they understood helping each other out. I think the farther west you go, the more The more advanced and away from the old world society gets, the more brotherhood erodes. Because you don't need it. Life is too good. If you've got a good paycheck, if you've got a a great job, if and for the younger generation, if you can get away and go camping in your Subaru and you know, do some snowboarding and then climb a hill and and then have a really good meal afterwards, that's that's the good life.

Corley: Yeah. Ben Flagel: There might be brotherhood in that There might be fraternity in that if you're doing it with firefighters all the time. I know a lot of young people that are that way, but they're not going to run around wearing a fire jacket and buying a leather helmet. That's not their way. And I think the worst thing we can do is get mad at them for that. I think the best thing we can do is is try to find common ground and help them understand us a little bit. Corley: I want to ask you this one one more before I know I know you're on the clock, so but I want to ask you this one more because it's been asked multiple times by different people, but basically it's what do you do if you're in a fool's chapter And let me find it here. Let me get the wording, one of the wordings right. when they feel like they're stalling out or they've that or that they've plateaued. Memberships, no new members, and the regular members aren't showing up as much. Advice from the president. Ben Flagel: Every chapter goes through that, and if it hasn't, it will. Before I became the president, Richie Stack brought me in to be the secretary, and I I came in with Chris Bednarek and the two of us just became the Bobsey twins right off the bat. We just we are instant friends and we work so well together. And What we rapidly learned was that we were seeing a pattern in the history of the chapters. The people that start the chapter are highly motivated. They're usually type A. They have a hard time focusing sometimes. Quite often they're not skilled at running an organization. So they they If they want to have a dynamic chapter, they attract people, the the guy that's really smart and can be techie and do the website thing and the guy that can be the logistics guy and you get all those people together and you form your team and where the mistake occurs is as those people go hey boss you know we just had a baby and I I gotta devote more time to my family. you you just haven't cultivated a replacement for that person And it's hard, especially in small towns or or in chapters that are regional, such as mine.

Ben Flagel: Our chapter contains 13 or so different fire departments. and we're spread out over a large area. So it becomes very difficult to replace that vital person on the e-board. Another thing I noticed was just a lack of know-how. We're we may be good at pulling hose, but that doesn't mean we know how to run an organization that that's fraternally organized. And so you see a lot of mistakes taking place. For example, a chapter that wants to be famous for training, and it does happen, that the chapters form not because of brotherhood But because they they need a vehicle to be famous teachers and that's what they want to do. And more power to them. Everybody, you know, that that's a cherished goal to be featured at fire engineering FDIC. But that's not what a chapter is designed to facilitate. So you have a a resources problem and insurance. And all those things. Where do you get the money for that? And we're just Jim McCormick sat down with me one time because I was sent by the board to discuss with him. training venues in conjunction with his organization which was his initial idea and I knew him from my writing and and I I'd been privileged to meet him and work with him for a short bit. So I was sent over there to hash it out. And he was the one that helped me help the board really to realize that we weren't set up to be a training company He was, but we weren't. A fraternal organization excels at taking care of people. and demonstrating that dedication to the job and the ceremony and the love of history and the traditions And that that's what the fools are good at is making people thankful that they're a firefighter and that they're among these people I love so much. There are guys. I, you know, I'm a I'm a man of faith. I worship God, the Creator. And it's known by many fools. They know that I am a believer. And One of my best friends is not. And he's clearly been hurt by people that dragged a Bible around and whacked him over the head. And I've always been very cautious and and loving towards him not not to jeopardize our our friendship with that. And one time in his cups he'd had a little bit much And we were talking about a deep subject, and he grabbed me by the face and he goes, you know how I feel about Christians.

Ben Flagel: And you are a Christian man that I love. And that is what the fools are all about. We can be so divided in our belief systems, and yet we will shed blood for each other. Corley: Right on. Ben Flagel: That is what brotherhood is about. And and the how could the young people know anything about that? We have to teach them. And how do you find ways? Well, you you run your chapter well. It is a struggle to keep a chapter functioning well. You have to look for talent. Don't be afraid to get the young people involved and give them a purpose. If you see someone that's tech savvy, grab them. If you see someone that's good with money, grab them. If you see someone that's good teaching and drawing attention, use them and nurture the fraternity in them. And then you will have an e-board that can carry on for you. Because You know, I've been at this since 2003 when we started our chapter, and now I run the organization. And I tell you, if it wasn't for Dave Nabowski and Chris Benereck and Dana Larkin and Bob Foss, there wouldn't be an e-board because I'm exhausted much of the time. And those guys are a machine. And they they are the team. I'm simply the front man. And And and that's what every president should be developing. We are we started my term as president four years ago off going, okay, who are we gonna get to run this organization One of your top priorities is to be looking for your replacement right now. And it's going to take time. So start looking. And here we are four years later. Bob has just retired from the eboard and fortunately Chris is more than capable of moving and taking that job. So we're able to keep going, but we're still looking for replacements. And I've drawn a line in the sand. And that's that's something a chapter president has often struggles to do. This is it this is their baby. Right. Their beloved chapter But you draw a line in the sand, and I did it, I did it with my own chapter back in 2014. I said, I'm not going past this point. Someone needs to step up and own this.

Corley: Right, right Ben Flagel: That's an obsession. Yeah. And at times that's where it falls apart because your vision of what the chapter should be and what the other people envision the chapter being is not necessarily gonna jive. Right on. And so it it doesn't always make it. And I would rather have ten quality chapters than five hundred chapters that are all over the map and barely able to function Corley: Right on. Beautiful answer. So there you go. Absolutely tons of good information there. On the chapter specific questions. Amazing. Like you said, plumbing the depths. 100%. All right, book or books. One of my favorite questions I love to ask, especially of readers, especially of readers of people who study leadership. Book or books that you think firefighters should be reading? And it doesn't have to be firefighter books. I always want to tell people it can be any book. Ben Flagel: I understood. I got a mix here. Corley: Okay. Ben Flagel: I I for those who think life is hard, you need to read with the old breed by Eugene Sledge. Sledge, yes. Learn learn what suffering is really about. No doubt. I was taught the word in boot camp. I was taught the word fortitude. And I've never forgotten that word because it's very rarely used, but it means long suffering for a good cause. And and Firefighters do that. And so I think that's a fantastic book to read. Call Science Chaos with Mattis, General Mattis. I I really enjoyed that book. I haven't finished it yet because I read like eight, ten books at a time, and so it takes me a long time to read books.

Corley: Right on Ben Flagel: About Face by Colonel Hackworth. Hackworth. There's a man who loved the army. It was his life in Vietnam. compromised the honor of the people he served with and he called them out on it and that was the end of his career. And And I think firefighters find themselves in Colonel Hackworth. Same character, same mentality. and it's a it's a really enjoyable read. and just like everybody else, when I was a young boy I read Engine Company 82. I loved every minute of it, and I never got to meet Dennis Smith. But I I would have I would have been excited to do so. The Blackened Shield by Don Whitney, I think is a fantastic book. Okay. the war years up in Portland, Maine. And it helps you it helped me understand wow technology isn't really that old because I was wearing a STBA mask doing overhaul and I would get told to take my mask off, save your air and and and at the end of that book, Don is dealing with that issue and talking about the change coming. so it it's a good timepiece. Right on. And then something I didn't add in the list I sent you, but I feel strongly about, is Real Heat by Carol Chekkovich.

Corley: Okay. Ben Flagel: That's C-H-E-T-K-O-V-I-T-C-H. And I read that book while preparing my research paper for EFO and it is about the way women were treated in those years and the I'm glad I read it because In interviewing all the women I interviewed, I found that that hasn't changed much in some places. It's heartbreaking because, and I can say this strongly as the president of the fools because I know the founders. The founders are my friends. They're supportive of me. They've been mentors to me and they respect women firefighters. And you know that Coming into a department, you see a lot of guys that you look at, weak little men that you think, what in the world is that person thinking coming into this job Yet the only women that's acceptable is one that is is like a a marathon runner Exceptional woman that throws discus and you know right. Corley: Super athlete. Ben Flagel: Yeah, those are the only ones we're gonna praise. And that's a double standard that right from the start of their careers. And that's just one example of some of the things, but just the dignity of treating people as human beings. Right it's so important and that book really really helped me learn what we are unfortunately capable of doing. Wow. Okay. No. Very serious. Serious leader in this time frame needs to read that book.

Corley: Love it. And the last real heat. Gender and race in the urban fire service by Carol Chetkovich. Ben Flagel: Very good. You're fast. That's good. Corley: Sam posted it so I could read it. So makes me look makes me look smart. absolutely. One of my favorite parts, the favorite part of the scrap for me is the five questions for firefighters. The five questions for firefighters version 3. 2 is where we're currently at. It is the third iteration of questions There are no wrong answers, only your opinions. The points are arbitrary. They're passed out by me with the aid of the audience. So my question for you is, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? Version 3. 2 Ben Flagel: Yes. Corley: Here we go. Number one, what is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career? Ben Flagel: Well, that's that's easy. I can pull hose, but I have bifted on the pavement more than times I can count. I'm I'm good on the interior, but I have no idea what I'm doing. You can't see anything. I hate thermal imagers. I usually get lost. This the skill I liked driving quite a bit, but I even got shut down for a month because I came too close to a signpost But the skill that I think that's helped me survive in my career is the ability to be an authentic leader.

Corley: Authenticity. Ben Flagel: I don't believe that you're born born as a leader. I think you may have talents that you're born with, but if you don't develop the skills of leadership You'll be charismatic for a while and then you'll fade. I believe you need to leave, especially nowadays. where it's it's so critical leaders are are are not assumed to be God appointed. I think your your skills need to be dialed in. And I started leading the moment they put bugles on my collar. I sat there and stared at the ceiling and hyperventilated thinking, oh oh shit, now I have to really do this. And Most departments don't have a training program for captains. So I started teaching myself immediately and absorbing any lesson I could. And I I think that has gotten me where I'm at. Corley: I love it, man. It says Rob Fisher said max points. Scott Hoke said maxest of all max points. John Belez said max points Ben is truly an authentic leader. I can confirm. Jay Obbs gave unlimited points. I might be the first unlimited points I've seen, but I think you got max points on question number one. Yeah, Stoneface Fool says, Corley, I don't know why you're asking these. Rob Fisher and us have already decided max full points across the board. Dan Bender said, one of the best answers to question one. Man, you're getting some love there. Number two. Question number two. It's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. Think of the scene from backdraft where he slaps that cassette tape into the deck. What song are you playing in route?

Ben Flagel: Well, diesels are slow out of the gate, so it's got to be sweet emotion because it takes time to start rolling Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith. I was gonna say, is that our first Aerosmith? Corley: Okay, can't confirm. First Aerosmith. Okay, there you go. Sweet emotion. There is a there is a playlist of all the answers. I'll have to send the the the the link is up and pinned in the firehouse vigilance discussion. I need to pin it to the to page, but Irregardless, there is a Spotify playlist with all of them for those who want to know. And absolutely max points, Aerosmith, Steven Tyler, Drew, Dro, yeah, crooning. I like it. Number three What is your favorite fire service tradition? I love this question coming at the President of the Fools, by the way. Ben Flagel: you know, I I think I used to be enamored with the The uniform, the helmets, the the bagpipes, that they used to be the thing for me, but my favorite fire service tradition is how we honor each other. I've only been able to do it once where I was and it was because a friend helped me. I was able to pay for a ticket at short notice and fly down all the way to Florida for a funeral and step into the parade. And I I can't express how important it is for an Alaskan to be able to say, I'm aware that you went down. I'm aware that you fell. And I want to honor you. And from Alaska on 9-11, that was that was hard not as hard as the people that went through it by any means, but to be so far away and be absolutely unable to demonstrate and and link up and share your pain with those who are suffering. And I I believe that's what we are to do. If when Chief Croker says We are privileged to do the work of God Himself, meaning saving lives. He he could easily have said, and And sacrificing ourselves for each other. When we lay down our time, our money, and our effort to honor each other, I think that is absolutely my favorite tradition, even though I've only been able to do that on a on a national basis once

Corley: Okay. I don't think there's any question I'm at max points. Dude, absolutely, man. The epitome of we not me. No, 100%. Absolutely crush that answer. I don't even need to see. Yeah, we actually got five stars coming from Stender. So many maxes. No better answer. yeah, absolutely. This is real AF max points six exclamation points. Yeah. Man, okay, I can't even knock that. Number four, on the clock. We had to put this one on the clock because it can go on and on and on with the honorable mentions and everything else. So you get four. It's who are the four people you would put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service. And go. Ben Flagel: Colonel Charles Dockery would be the first one. His call sign was buzzard bait, and he was the scariest Marine I've ever met. And he saved my my butt more than once and he would look at you and you could just feel your spine crinkle because That guy went to Vietnam at 16 and ended his career as a a test pilot for the Marine Corps. He was hard as nails. And he believed in tradition and honor. the things the Marine Corps believed in. And that's where I I saw the living role model of how to I love Buzzard Bait.

Corley: You got 18 seconds. Ben Flagel: Right, right. Okay, okay. Gotta go. my dad, Will Flagle. He was not in the fire service, but he taught me to be the man that I am. Phil Round's was a battalion chief who who died of cancer and I really respected the lessons he taught me. And Captain Mike Dugan for the words he has said and the respect he shows the smallest firefighters. Corley: I will give it I'll give it I'll give it on the clo at sixty-seven seconds or so. I'll give it to you. We had to. We had to put the clock. And again, every one of them, they're your Mount Rushmore and they deserve more than 15 seconds apiece on average. So absolutely. It's not a fair question. It's not a fair question. Absolutely love it. Buzzard bait. I love the fact that you said he said, yeah. Dad, rounds, and of course, one of the tallest people in the fire service. One of the biggest, largest hearts in the fire service Captain Mike Dugan. Absolutely love it. Max points, easy for me. I don't even have to see the rest. You know, and that's why that's what Rob Fisher says. This is why he's the warrior poet. He's a storyteller No, absolutely. Max points 444, which takes us to the question of questions. There is heavy fire and searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on the VES?

Ben Flagel: On the nozzle. Taking the tip. Taking the tip. I do enjoy attacking fire. but the but the reasoning behind it is you know I drank the Kool-Aid, I have tried to learn as much as possible about the fire service and the way of doing it best. And I I discounted the the Fairbanks attitude. Just get between the fire and what you want to save with two or three guys and knock the crap out of it And i i in thirty-two years I've come back around full circle and I believe that is the best way that Fairbanks firefighters can knock a fire out it's just get in there and hit it hard and make everything better. Corley: I absolutely love it, man. Get between you and what you want to say. there you go. That officially makes it. Five for five. Max points. From and that officially puts 229 scraps in the books. My brother, my president, Ben Flagel, thank you for sharing your evening with us. If people want to get a hold of you or reach out, any questions or follow-up, what's the best way to do so? Ben Flagel: real easy. President at foolsinternational. com It's as simple as it gets. Yep. President at foolsinternational. com.

Corley: All one word or with the app, but yes. Man, I I feel like we barely scratched the surface on things we could talk about. And I feel I feel like we could go so much, so much longer. Everybody, housekeeping, go to firehousevigilance. com. you can join the vigilantes there. Five bucks a month. You can sign up for a year. I'll be posting the link to the scrap after party where we will be having a blast discussing what we were talking about tonight. And that's Vigilantes. Also the V50. I'm in my second run of the V50, my fourth overall V challenge commitment. And if you want to be a part of that, it is a great way to build those strong habits, convince yourself and build your confidence. I'm very proud of it. If you want to make a change, grab it. D50. all that being said, next week, Chief Craig High. Haig, followed by Robert Wynn. Man, it's 2024 is coming off and it's a killer. Thank you, Chief Ben Flagle, for being such a phenomenal guest. Ben Flagel: I really enjoyed it. I'm deeply honored to be asked. And Let it forever. Long live the fools.

Corley: Perfect, perfect way to send it. That's it, man. Audience, I let thank you all for showing up. Thank you for the killer questions. Thank you for the killer comments. Thank you for helping me score the Five questions. As always, man, you make the scrap magical. It would be nothing without you. So thank you for tuning in each week and making it awesome. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. Everybody. Stay safe out there