Weekly Scrap #346 - Shannon Stone, Leadership and Growth.

Corley: Mike check, Mike Check, I'm a talkin, I'ma talking I'm dancing in place. Okay. Yeah, we're here, we're live. Is this the is this the first everybody's seeing? Okay I'm doing my YouTube. We're working on it, everybody. If you can hear me, we are working on it. Sam is working on it in the background. He's asked me to keep talking, so I'll just give you a stream of consciousness as we work on the live show. Welcome to the live show. Should we just run it down from the top? I'm going to run it down from the top. I don't know who's heard what. So if you already heard it, hey, take a take a bathroom break and I'll just start from the top. So Here we go. Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. You're gonna feel some deja vu, Shannon. Weekly scrap number 346. My guest tonight is one of my favorite speakers and a mentor to many, myself included. Chief. Shannon Stone. Shannon Stone is a second generation 34-year veteran of the fire service who worked his way through the ranks. He is currently the fire chief of Midway Fire District. in Gulf Breeze, Florida. Shannon teaches at various events across the country, and you should catch him any chance you get, specifically Nuggets from the right seat. Man, I've taken so many notes from that class that it Every time I take it, I take more notes. He specializes in teaching officer leadership, engine company operations. The man has done a lot, and I could go on and on, but instead I will say, welcome back, my brother, to the scrap for episode number 346. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate you having me on, brother. For those who don't know, we had just had a technical issue. So we're basically rerunning it from the top. And if you saw it already, great. If not, here we go. Anything I missed in the intro? Anything you would like to add?

Chief Shannon Stone: No, no. Corley: As usual, you make me sound much better than I am. I appreciate it, man. The audience is here. They are fired up for the discussion. And audience, please get your questions ready for Shannon and myself. As always, Sam will be. Scanning the chat looking for your questions. And as a special bonus tonight, the Mr. Smooth Boar himself, Kyle Romagus, is in the chat looking for your questions. And So yeah, let's do it. We will get to the sponsors. We'll get through the sponsors and then we're ready to scrap. So here we go. Newest sponsor. I love Terra. Get the nasty stuff off you. Decon yourself. Shower within the hour and wash your balls. And there we go. Sponsors are done again. And now we can officially get to the scrap All right. People are excited. Okay, Kyle did want to make it clear. He is on shift and he said he would leave Shannon hanging if a fire comes in. He says he's out of here. Everybody else logging in. And Todd Edwards says he's actually America's coolest fire chief, and he gave you three fist bumps. So there you go. You got some you got some people in the in the in the chat ready to go. So Back to where we were. I'm a little discombobulated, but we are back to where we were. Leadership. I love it when I send out my my questionnaire to the guest that's coming on saying, hey, what would you like to discuss this? What would you like to discuss when you come on the scrap? And I always love when leadership is one of the topics and it's something I can dig into. But I especially love what you sent when you said developing the ideal promotional process to put the right people in the right seat. So I want to kick it off with that and throw it to you and say, what did you mean by developing the right promotional process?

Chief Shannon Stone: You know, promotional processes I think Most everybody can agree that they are way less than perfect, you know. more often than not, it seems like the process is in place not to promote the right person. And you know, and I like many people probably throughout their career wanted to see that process improve. but You know, you usually don't have the ability to really, you know, make a large swing. So take you back almost four years ago when I was a deputy chief hired in a Midway. that was one of my goals was to create a process in which it gave the right people the best opportunity to promote. They they still have to compete to get it, but the idea was you know, build a promotional process each rank that you know cultivates the type of individual character wise and skill set wise for each rank and that evolves as the ranks go up. and essentially creating a process in which you know punching a clock, doing your time and having seniority will no longer get you promoted. Now don't get me wrong I I I'm I'm I'm in favor of seniority. In fact, if I was to go over everything, all this seniority actually does play, you know, a small part in our promotional process, but the days of Just doing your time and meeting minimum qualifications, and then you're on the same playing field as everybody else, at least in my organization, are completely gone. And the whole premise was to build it so that we can hopefully more often than not put the right people in the right place starting, but really the process starts before a promotional process. It starts with our hiring process. And you know, we we tell the hiring board that we put in there, which is made up of all ranks, that we want you to hire the person, not the qualifications. We've passed Very qualified people, firefighter paramedics, to hire young kids that are in the academy because, you know, we are doing our best to invest in a 25 plus year investment. And we can train you to be a good firefighter and a good EMT and a paramedic all day, but we're not in the business of raising adults into better human beings. We want you to come in like that. And hopefully the goal is to professionally and personally, you know, you become better.

Chief Shannon Stone: But we we look more at the character than we do the qualification. And from there, when you get in, there's a clear roadmap for success if that's what you choose to do to move up. And if you choose not to, and you sort of stay at a rank, that's perfectly fine. And we welcome it because we have some very good firefighters of various ranks that that's where they want to be at. But essentially the process was built with a lot of strategic timing and relationship building when I came in to build the trust and and the the I tell people this all the time that the union is instrumental in every single thing that we do. I am I am a big union advocate. I have been since the day I came in. Many people that I've trained with over the years don't realize, but you know, I spent a large part of my career. as a union president, about 11, almost 12 years as union president working locally and at the state level. so I have I have a big passion for that as I do Training and it's not rocket science if you want to succeed in building something in an organization, bring the people in with you And it starts with the union president, it starts with the membership, it starts with building that mutual trust. And that took a a year or two when I started the organization to where the timing was right, where we built a committee. of individuals that were like-minded and a few that had some different ideas, that's important as well, to develop the process to put the right people in the right places. So what did it look like? It started out with a whiteboard, then it started out with a rank I said, okay, what makes the best driver? What do you think? And as an example, as an example, everybody said, well, I'll tell you what doesn't make them is a four-year degree. That does not make a good a good driver. We need them to focus on task-oriented type stuff. So we basically started breaking down and it's centered on a skill set and then it's centered on character.

Corley: So I want to make sure I w I just want to I want to I I want you to I there's a LUT here, but you basically put together a well you said you took a year to build up enough trust are investing in the relationships and and that you know that has to be there the foundation of trust but once you had the trust you built a committee that then basically sat down with a blank whiteboard and started saying What do we want for the rank? Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, yeah. We still we started out and and and we we looked at the skill sets and then we looked at character traits and it's centered around skill sets, character traits, and leadership. And I just got a big one, a big whiteboard guy. So I just started writing all these things down in these categories. And once we went through everything, you know, leadership traits, trust, integrity. you know, you name it all the stuff you would expect to see. Speaker 3: Sure. Chief Shannon Stone: At that at that point, we decided we looked at it and said, okay, well, how do we measure these things? things. That's how we take these and put these into a process in which point they're measurable so that we can hopefully ideally grab these these types of skill sets and these types of traits. So things like as an example, character, trust, integrity, attitude, motivation, how do you measure those? Yes. Like those are so sub, those are so subjective, right? So one of the things that we did that Midway actually was doing prior to me coming in there and one of the very few organizations that I'm aware of that does it, we've just taken it and made it a lot better and we haven't carried a lot more weight is we do what's called pure perception evals. And basically, to long story short, there's five categories that everybody's measured at. It deals around trust, your skill set, leadership, motivation, training. And they basically rank you on where you fall on the list of where who where the membership thinks that that individual should place on that promotional list. They essentially, your peers have a hand and deciding who's going to be their next leader, who's going to be their next potential leader. For the drivers, the skill sets they determined was obviously the stuff you would expect to see.

Chief Shannon Stone: standardized driving courses, pumping evolutions, which tie directly into our training program to be qualified to do it. So it's a clear roadmap of evolutions that's about 15 of them right off the bat that I have to be very proficient at that they can expect to be tested any of those. that carries around that carries, I think, I brought my notes because I had to make sure I remembered it correctly. Sure. That carries about 40% of your score for the drivers, 40% period, and 20% a written test off of relevant material. We just don't pick random books. We actually pick books and chapters and specific pages out of books that are relevant to what they're going to test on. And the whole thought process is if They go through the whole process and maybe they don't get promoted. At a bare minimum, they were forced to get back into the information and practice their skill sets and learn things that they're gonna benefit and hope hopefully build upon. So if you take that same approach and you start building it for the company officer rank, which in our department is a captain, and you start breaking it down, we did essentially the same thing. we looked at a peer valve except the perival for the captain's rank carries even more weight. It's a 50% weight.

Corley: Okay. Chief Shannon Stone: your your performance assessment, which includes two fire ground scenarios and an instructing scenario, and the reason those were picked was because we want people to be very strong on the most dangerous thing that we do, which is go into fires. Okay. We want our company officers, we're cultivating a culture. of instructing and mentoring and coaching. So we included an instruction portion in the promotional exam because when you make boss, you're expected to be the coach and the teacher. You're the one responsible for it. Now don't get me wrong. you're going to delegate out the strengths, but ultimately the company officer is the one that's setting the tone and building that culture. So we built that into the promotional assessment as well. And a written exam. The written exam Takes a little a little bit less weight. And some people would argue should it even be in there? I would say that it should be in there because there are certain things that we need to know. And again, we narrow that down to Two different books, specific chapters out of the books that are relevant to the part of Florida that we're in. And then a lot of our operational SOGs that are relevant. Not all of them.

Corley: So what's the percentage on that? Like I if you if you know or if you haven't your notes there, it's 50% on the peer review on that, and then how much is the assessment and then how much is the book? Chief Shannon Stone: 40% assessment and then risk. Corley: Okay, okay. I just want to make sure I had the numbers right. Go ahead. Sorry, I don't mean to I don't mean to break your flow. Chief Shannon Stone: No, and on on top of that, we've on each one of the ranks we've identified we've identified bonus points that you can get. They're not a tremendous amount. We didn't want bonus points that was gonna swing an entire promotional process. What we wanted was bonus points that are built in so that if they're if they're within a point of each other with the final score, that the bonus points could be the tiebreaker. And they include everything from going to conferences You can get a max points for going up to two conferences within a 12-month period of the promotional process. As you move up the ranks and company officer is an example, you get points for going to FDTN. But basically we've we built a system that rewarded education and training that benefited that particular rank that they're going to carry on throughout their career. So no longer are you getting points for being a CPR instructor or in our case a hazmat technician, which don't get me wrong, it's good, but we don't do hazmat. We rely on the surrounding counties. So we don't want our guys hyper-focused on spending all this time of getting a certification that's not going to be relevant to what they're going to be doing most of the time. As you go up in the ranks. If you look through the point system, you'll see that the college becomes a big deal as you hit the battalion rank and it becomes a little bit of a big deal to captain's rank. It's not really a big deal at the driver's rank. Why? Because we don't want guys focused on getting their bachelor's degree when they should be focused on learning how to drive pump and learning how to do the boss's job and be the right-hand man of the boss, right? No, absolutely. So there's there's bonus points at the end and then you move to the battalion the the peer perception carries even more weight.

Chief Shannon Stone: It carries Make sure I get it right. It carries 70% of the score. And your other 30% of the score for your battalion comes from a professional portfolio review. Which is basically measuring your career, what you've contributed, what your strengths or your weaknesses are. So we've made it clear That you really should care about your reputation and that you should be concerned about what people think about you. Not because you're trying to be the nice guy or someone that's well-like, but the reality is If nine out of ten people say that you should not be the leader of a company or a leader of a battalion, they're probably going to be right. And I'll give you an example. My chief, my then chief, Jonathan Kinzik, he and I were having a conversation about this when we were developing this process with the union. And I asked him a simple question. I said, listen, if we had a battalion exam today, right now, let's say there's four or five candidates And we took a vote in the fire department. Do you think that vote would be correct? And without hesitation, he looks at me and he said 100%. And I said, you know what, I think it would be too. You know, he says that's how instrumental is that the peer evals are. Now, what some people will say is that it's a popularity contest.

Corley: That's instantly, that's instantly my first like like red flag I want to throw and say, what do you say people who say, hey, it's just a who likes who the most? I say you're right. It is. Chief Shannon Stone: You know, depending on how you want to look at it. Trust me, in my experiences at least, and I've been watching this for over six years now, and I'm privy to it before I came in. Not one time have they promoted somebody that they didn't trust, they didn't rely on, and that they didn't want to be their leader. And trust me, there's a lot of nice guys that are that are really nice guys and fun to work with, but you don't want them to be their boss. You know, so what we found is if you have a good reputation and you know what you're doing, you treat people well, and you're morally grounded. And you put others before self, which is what our whole premise of our mission is and our organization, yeah, you're going to score high. Absolutely. I love it. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just the thing. Here's the beauty about this is this this wasn't designed by by me, it wasn't designed by one person. It was designed by us and the union. And if the union didn't agree on it and I use the word union because they represent it. If the guys didn't agree on it, we didn't collectively agree in the committee level about this, we wouldn't even be doing it. And I jokingly tell the union president on all the stuff that we do because the union president is involved in the vast majority of the decisions that I make in the fire department. Not because I'm trying to appease the unions, because they're just so instrumental and I'm always trying to find what I don't know And many times they've got great perspectives, but I jokingly tell them all the time, I said, man, if we screw this up, man, you're going down with me. We're both going to take the blame for it. But but with that too, you know, we're constantly talking about, you know, we're going to make mistakes. You know, we may make decisions that aren't the best and that's okay. You know, we need to work diligently to find out where those are and we need to fix them together.

Chief Shannon Stone: And when you're working hand in hand with the union, you have a great union relationship. and a great relationship with the guys, it makes it so much easier. because you're not backing into things. You usually are dealing with things up front proactively before they become they become an issue. This whole promotional process, there was a lot of strategy and how I wanted to kind of roll this out. I had a good general idea of where this was going to land, and we landed probably on about 98-99% of what I thought it was going to land on. On. Not because I did anything to sway them. I just basically put everything out there. I asked the questions and I got answers back to what I was expecting to get back. Because in my organization, like many other organizations, they want the right people to promote. You know, they I never thought it was a I never thought it was the best process to have bare minimum qualifications and you got a guy sitting in a rank for 10, 15 years and he's going up against this guy that's been in rank for seven years, but this guy's been in a rank for seven years, has done 25 years worth of work to become better, yet he is on the level playing field with the guy that's done nothing but come in and punch the clock. And don't get me wrong, the guy punched the clock. I'm sure he's a good dude Don't confuse with being a good person versus being a great fireman. There's a difference, right? That that playing field is no longer level for us. You have to earn it. You have to work. And you have to get there. And if you don't have the motivation or desire to do it, you're just not going to do it. And that's fine too. I mean, it's okay. Like every everybody's built differently. You know, we we embrace it at all different levels. But I can tell you in the In the short time we've had this promotional process in place, we're probably going on three almost four years. Yeah, I'm gonna brag, man. Every single person that's been promoted has been on run. so it's working out good for us, you know. We're a smaller department, so the peer reval is a lot easier to do.

Chief Shannon Stone: Like we're a larger department, it could be problematic, you know. Corley: No, I want to ask you because I Like, like how, like, okay, so I'm just I'm I'm gonna pretend to be just a Joe Blow who's working at my department and saying, man, this sounds amazing, but Shit, if I tried that at my department, my guys would spit roast me and say, you know, what insert whatever firemen are going to say. How long did it take you to get. the trust to where you could approach this and what was there was there naysayers or was it pretty much you know and I'm trying I'm trying I just picking Chief Shannon Stone: it's it took probably a good year and a half, two years before I even breached the subject. You know, I mean I came into the organization. I mean, you know, I I retired after 20 Nine years in another county, city of Fallon Beach is where I retired from. And I I knew guys towards the Pensacola area because obviously I worked in Escambia County. for years. So I did have some personal relations, but but you know, regardless, when you come in, you you're reproving yourself and you have to build that trust. So I mean it was a good, it was a good probably year and a half, close to two years of just doing other things. to start building the trust before I felt the timing was right. The other thing too is that, you know, if if you if I didn't get the union involved and and all the guys involved, I don't really think we would have landed on anything Close, I don't think I would have been successful. you know, and I and I take that approach in just most everything we do in the fire department, you know. So if other departments were to take this, because I've had a lot of people reach out to me over the last year or two. I can only imagine. And I've shared it with them, but if you don't include the membership and you don't have them be a part of it, you're certainly going to have a harder time getting the buy-in on it. You know, and when they help build it, it becomes important to them And they take value in it, not just because of the process, but because it's an organization that they care deeply about.

Chief Shannon Stone: So if you miss that whole element and actually building the process and you don't really think it through and be patient you know, and and have the right timing, it can be it can be difficult because I can tell you this process would have been immensely more difficult in my last fire department. Especially with it being a city fire department. It was an older fire department. A lot more guys stuck in their ways. That's a different challenge too. Speaker 3: Sure. Chief Shannon Stone: But the approach, but the approach when You know, when you do it, it's the same. And if you really just want to get down to the fundamental basics of it, and this isn't this is a leadership thing, it's relationship building. It really is, man. Everything that you do revolves around the relationships. that you build and how you respond to those relationships. That's either going to give you a platform to do things like this, or it's going to totally erase the platform and not give you the ability to do it, right? So from the time we started, about a year and a half, two years to build the trust. And then we, I think we probably spent a good solid year, you know, eight, nine months, close to a year developing this. in committee forms, starting with the whiteboards, starting with drafts. You know, we actually looked at portfolios for captains to try to accomplish thing we backed off that we took another route. so it was a lot of work. I mean, but you know, anything we're doing that you're going to make good, almost always you're going to put it end up putting a lot of work in.

Corley: Did you find that the the how do I word a word this the fact that you were trusting your people to evaluate who their future leaders were going to be, did that empower them to take it more seriously or was was there still naysayers who were like, oh, this is a joke, it doesn't matter, that kind of stuff? Speaker 3: well here's the interesting thing. Chief Shannon Stone: The the percentages for the peer valves went up drastically when we redid the process. They were much, much less And that came from the committee. That was not a suggestion. That was not a suggestion of mine. Okay. If I'm being honest, and I've told other guys since then, guys on the committee and guys in the fire department, that's exactly where I thought it should go. But I mean the percentages the point systems, all of that was driven by the guys and a in a in a large group having discussions. And what I what I essentially did is I helped steer the I helped steer the boat. I ask a lot of the important questions What are the traits? How valuable is that? How do you measure that? How important is it? You know, do you want to capture that? You know, if the peer revalu is the only way out of if I would have thought about it, I would have brought on my notes, but the period will capture a lot of things that the guy said were really important. Well you got to make a decision. If you want to move on this, a very subjective thing To capture this, this is how you can capture it, or we're just not going to be able to capture it. And we're going to go back to the old processes where it's going to be a check in the box, you know. Yeah. Increase the percentage on a written exam, who scores high, who has a good day on that. We know that's not the best way to do it But ultimately, after a lot of discussions and I just kept up steering it, we landed on a lot of these. And one of the most impressive things with quite honestly was the percentage of the Peri Valve. When I talked to my old my old chief, Chief Kanzett, we had conversations. We were both actually kind of surprised that the group wanted it that high.

Chief Shannon Stone: I was happy about it, but I was apprehensive as as if they were gonna think that, you know, but but it but it's It's worked out good. And I I don't have anything negative to say about the Piri vows. I mean, there's a you get a few grumblings here and there, but you know, I can tell you this, the people who have scored well on them never complained. So And the ones that have scored well on them, the guys that have scored well on them, every single one of them, you know, we're, you know, as as Kyle says, we're in our trust tree. So I'll just be honest with you, every one of them that scored well on them were well respected, well thought of, well-trusted individuals. Period. There was nobody that scored high on that period eval that had issues. That everybody knew about that just was overlooked. Just looking the other way. Corley: Right. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah. And here's why. Here's why. You know it. I mean, you had an opportunity to have, you know, a voice in who's going to be the future leader of your organization Or if you're a battalion chief, he's going to be the future leader of the men that you're responsible and that you have the honor of leading. Yeah, I would say that, you know, 99% of the time, you're going to make the best decision. You know, if you give a shit about the fire service, about what's best for the organization and the mission. And we haven't even got into it, but when you build a culture of servant leadership, you build a culture of putting others first, you build a culture of preparation You build a culture of understanding that every single day you're preparing to be our best on their worst day, that it's a matter of time before you go to a call where our actions make a difference. That mission weight in the culture that you that you constantly talk about and live and eat and breathe to the best of your ability, that all plays into these opinions on these period vows. It really, really does. Now if you took the peer revalue and you just plugged it into a a system where they didn't value the same stuff that our organization values, and a lot of others do, then I would argue It probably would may be that that, you know, popularity contest that you and I first talked about.

Chief Shannon Stone: Right, right. About just putting a nice guy in there. So but if you don't, but if you have a culture that's happily decent going the right direction, I just I don't see it happening, man. I don't see it happening, you know. Corley: No, I love it. And and another thing, I want to touch on this because it's so important to me And I the first time I ever heard of this was Chief Hovelman and he talked about having the shop steward come into their command staff meeting. meetings so that they were so that the the shop steward or the union president, depending on where you're at, I I'd never heard the term shop steward, so that's where I learned it. But the shop steward coming in and being involved in the command staff meetings and that blew my mind because I thought about my, you know, my old job, the And antagonistic relationship between the admin and the union was it was just default aggressive and But you're the second person from a from a five-bugle standpoint, five trumpet, sorry, Chief Lasky, five trumpet standpoint that has has said you got to you know bringing them in and making them a part of the decision making maybe not decision making process but keeping them in the loop.

Chief Shannon Stone: Well, you know, I I would I would say at times are for me at least, you know, I can't speak for other people people, but for me, they they are a large part of my decision making process. And what I mean by that is I'm not going and saying, hey, you know, tell me what you think. I want you know, I'm gonna take a vote on a decision, but their their input, their feedback is super valuable to me and it's super important that I get it. You know, so this this is the second year as the fire chief that I that I'm going through the budget process. Previously as a deputy chief, you know, my lane was operations my goal was to get the money I needed to make sure I had the training and I could continue to operate and buy the equipment. Now obviously it's at a at the much higher level. and being the fire chief that you know I'm making the types of decisions how we're going to handle it. And one thing that we're doing differently this year that's now ever been done is our union president is involved in in the budget process. We have two separate phases. We have the operational phase and the administrative phase. The first phase we actually just started here this past week. is it deals with the battalion chiefs, the deputy chief, the fire marshal, myself, and the union presidents. And we're asking the union president to do the same thing the battalion chiefs do. And that's forecasting out the next fiscal year and then the four following after that that we need. And at a bare minimum, I just spoke with the new union president the other day. And I said, listen, at a bare minimum, you don't have to bring anything. I just want you there to understand the process. I want your feedback. I want your questions, you know, and I want you to start learning about it so we can be even more transparent about what we do with the membership. And I said, and honestly, I said, I'll tell you the same thing. I told the last union president is man, listen, you know, I I am by far not the smartest guy. You know, so I welcome criticism and I want to know because you know I worked Super hard the last part of my career to know what I don't want to know.

Chief Shannon Stone: I'm intrigued to know when I'm going the wrong direction. So there's a deliberate effort. It's not just a A smoke of mirrors to get the union president involved. Corley: Right, right. No, authenticity, I think, is the key to building the rel if it's I mean, because there's one thing firefighters can smell, it's it's a it's a phony. I mean they they have the best bullshit detectors Just built in. They're hypersensitive to it. And so if it's not authentic, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose more ground than you gain trying to be that way. But why and so I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm getting ready to transition to audience questions because there's a lot stacked up on the promotional process. So I want to get them thrown at you. But I want to bring up one thing, which is one of my absolute favorite quotes. From almost, I want to say, almost any fire conference I've ever been to, which is from you, Nuggets from the Right Seat. It is, I'm gonna butcher your quote, so I'm butchering it from memory, but it's the most important thing is that my people are feel sa s safe enough to tell me the things I don't want to know but need to hear And that's kind of what you just encapsulated there. And so it's one of my all-time all-time favorite definitions for being a person in charge is if your people don't feel secure enough to come and tell you that.

Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, you know, and that takes that takes work, right? I constantly talk about it at at the department and I especially talk about the officers. And and it's real simple. I have it written in my expectations and Handful mother law officers have the same thing, and that is that, you know, I expect you to tell me what I need to hear that I don't want to hear, or that I may not want to hear Corley: I may book you the quote, but you got the sense. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, it's the same thing. You know, and I and I tell him I said I expect you to be deliberate with your communication with me. I said, and I'm gonna be the same with you. And then when I, you know, obviously when I came in the organization, I mean saying one thing is is one thing and doing is another. And I and I started my relationship with the men in that fire department was that I'm going to tell you a lot of who I am and what I would like to do. I said, but listen, I don't I don't even want you, I'm going to tell you, but don't don't trust what I'm telling you I just want you to give me an opportunity. I said, I promise I'll prove it to you. And for anybody who wants to, you know, work diligently to know what they don't know. You know, they gotta understand there is this there is this process and phase and it does not happen quick. Even when you come into an organization with credibility and trust and And personal and professional trust through people and people who know people, you still, it's like being promoted. You still just got to prove yourself all over again. You know, so you know, by saying that, it it it took some time, you know, to to get you know my officers to do that. And you know, and listen, I'm not I'm not naive. You know, that there are guys that don't feel comfortable doing that. And that's perfectly okay. And the higher up you go, the harder you gotta work to do that. My goal was to give my battalion chiefs. Now, obviously, my deputy chief You know, he's he's very he doesn't he done has no problem telling me his opinion when he doesn't agree with me.

Chief Shannon Stone: And I and the more that you do that, the more opportunity is there because it's an opportunity for me to respond back in a way that I welcome it Because I'm intrigued, as opposed to being defensive and starting shutting it down. But I think that's one of the things that the leaders in general, whether it's at a company officer leader level or especially a chief's level, is that Well, yeah, I mean I'll just say it. Maybe we just don't we don't get that part as good as we should. We should be much better at it. You know, if you don't know what you don't know, how can you be a part of the solution? You know, that's what I tell the guys, the union guys, and everything else. It's like you got to listen. I want to be a part, my job now is to make sure that you guys are taken care of, that you have the resources. But listen, I mean I don't see everything. So you guys have to tell me what I don't know at times. Even when it's uncomfortable, you got to. Like unless I jokingly tell them all the time, I said, unless you insult my mom or my wife or my kids, I'm good. Like I'm not going to get upset You know, you may hurt my feelings for a second, but that's fine. I'll get over it, you know.

Corley: But you are and and in in defense of a lot of people is that there's not a ton of fire cheese. that have that mindset or don't I will say it does not appear that most fire chiefs have that mindset or people I won't just pick on fire chiefs just people in authority I don't know if it's just insecurity, if it's ego, or if it's imposter syndrome, or some blend and mixture of all three, but there's like like seeking to fill in your ignorance gaps as opposed to just trying to trying to cover them up and and gloss them and camouflage them. That's that seems to be a rare commodity. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, I think it's a combination of a lot of things, man. You know, another thing is just very uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable, man. I mean, you know It it it it treads on your feelings at times, you know, it it really does. You got you have to do your best to be comfortable with some of those uncomfortable things, you know. And I could give you examples recently of things that have gone on that you know you know as I'm going through them, you know, they're hitting my emotional triggers. And you got to learn how to control that. Pull it back. As I jokingly say, let it marinade, let it sit off, get the feelings off, go back again Because how you respond to that is really going to dictate whether you're successful in whatever you're trying to do. And it's it's our job as leaders to to build that platform relationship and respond in a way that people want to hear what we have to say. And here's the thing with with Chiefs as you go up and you know this is that, you know A lot of times you're not gonna know that you're thinking you're communicating in a way and you're thinking it's being effective. You know, but as soon as you walk back to the one side and they walk across the floor to the other side, You know, there's a lot of stuff that you don't know and they're not willing to share with you, you know. So if you're not diligently working to do that and have that relationship, you know, you you could be living inside this echo chamber of bubble thinking everything is good and dandy when when in fact it's it's not.

Chief Shannon Stone: Because even on a best day. Even on the best day, you're still gonna have those challenges, right? Corley: You know? No, without a doubt. And I and I can only imagine the gulf that is created the far, you know, because I I stopped a battalion chief So I can only imagine the gulf it's created the farther up you go if you and and how much more diligence and deliberateness it takes to close that gap Yeah. Yeah. Chief Shannon Stone: And then it's it's a lot of it's a lot of work too, which is probably another reason why. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to have objective work that you have to do. do right you know whether it's probably budgets budgets and SOGs all the staffing is another thing to have emotional work and emotional work If you don't know how to manage that well, we'll suck the life out of you. And that's what I think is the hardest part for a lot of people because it takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of work. if you care about it it wears on you heavily heavily you'll lose sleep over it right you know so maybe maybe that's a big part of why it's difficult too is that You know, and and maybe that's why people have asked me before what what causes Chiefs to be disconnected. well I can tell you there's a lot of reasons and I know them a lot better now than I did, you know you know, when I was a battalion chief. But I can tell you probably one of the primary reasons is because of that is because emotionally it's very, very draining. and sometimes the path the least resistance In our personal life, our professional life, it leads us to that. So I I work really hard to try to avoid that to the best of my ability, you know. So far I think it's working, but I mean I'm a rookie fire chief of the year end. So, you know, I'm kind of the same position last time we disgrapped.

Speaker 3: I was I was like less than a year as a deputy. I'm like, talk to me in four or five years, I'll let you know how it's going. Lost it, Sam. Mike check, Mike check Working on it, working on it. We're coming back. Are we back? Corley: We're back. Let me know we're back in there. Yeah, YouTube is definitely having issues tonight. So all right, which which gives me a good segue Give me a good segue into getting to some of these questions from the audience because Shannon's been killing it with the topic. And I'll lead it off with Kyle Romagus himself, because he said, Chief, you know I'm a nerd. Can you list some of the books that Midway uses for their promotional exams and if all ranks have the same list? Chief Shannon Stone: they don't have the same risk, the are the same list. for our our drivers is pretty simple. That's the state pumping book. And there are certain chapters that we just don't do that aren't relevant to us. We have an aerial operations book. We have certain chapters that are relevant to the drivers out of John Norman's fire officer handbook. As you move to the rank of company officer. which is Captain, a large part of that test comes out of the John Norman's book. Again, we we go in and handpick chapters. We even have specific pages within chapters. Because the whole point is that we want these written tests to be relevant. We want them to measure things that they need to know. You know, again, worst case scenario. They don't get promoted. They were forced in to dig into stuff that they were relearning again. For the company officers, we also have Dave McGrill's book because, you know, we're Unlike my last job, we don't have a whole lot of high rises, but we are mutual aid to Scambia County on Pensacola Beach, and we're also mutual aid to Navarre Beach, which Ironically enough, the first year I worked here, we had a working high-rise fire on the 17th floor of this little beach that I live at. So we have parts of Dave McGrail's book that are that are very important, but they're handpicked. And then we have probably 80% of our operational SOGs that's included in the test as well. and and the reason 80% is because there's about 20, don't get me wrong, they're important, but we want them to dig into the meat and potatoes of the things they're going to be doing as a company officer.

Chief Shannon Stone: And the goal is not to create a test that's so hard that we can see who can get the best score. The goal is to create a relative, you know, a relevant test that that really measures it. And the the other thing that we've done too that some departments do, some don't, is we do have a pass or fail on all of our written. So if you don't score 70 or above, which I think is completely, completely reasonable, then you don't move on to the next position on the on the the promo or the next portion of the promotional exam. Right on and and then the the battalions are they're a portfolio they don't have a written test or anything but that's Corley: Yeah, I believe that's the bulk of the books. There you go. There you go, Kyle. Nerd satisfied. Steve Mauch says how is the relevant material selected? Is it reviewed periodically and updated or based on this is how we do it? Which you kind of answered that, which is this is how we do it, selecting those relevant, relevant chapters. But is it how often do you review it? Chief Shannon Stone: you know, I mean this process has only been in place a little little less than four years, maybe four years. That's right. every every test we've done, we've taken a look at at it and we've actually made minor changes. And when we do that, again, union presidents involved, like the union president, I didn't mention this, but the union president is involved in our promotional process from start to finish. And what I mean by that is that developing the test, a written exam comes from outside companies. The practical exams and the assessments are built in-house by the deputy chief. And myself, most likely the deputy chief moving forward, those stay confidential. The only two people privy to that information is me and the deputy chief. Period. Nobody else, nobody in the administrative staff, nobody in the fire department has access to it. until the day of the test. The day of the test on any of the exams, the union present is there from start to finish, from the written. Through the driving practicals, through the captain assessments, and everything else. They're there from start to finish. And at the beginning of those days, we sit down with the union president, we say, here's the test Here's what's expected.

Chief Shannon Stone: And everything, all of our tests, we have tons of redundancy built into them to really cover all bases when it comes to confidentiality. Sure. Use consensus. We use consensus scorings with our evaluators. Our evaluators are all all outside of what's called the South Sienosa Fire Alliance. So nobody in a local close by department is doing the doing the the grading. So we have a lot of these processes put in place, everything including videotaping, everything we do to ensure that fairness is done to ensure complete confident confidentiality is in place where it needs to be in place, to ensure that transparency is where it needs to be, which is why the union president of the union's heavily involved because he's been instrumental as we develop this process through the testing phase to identify some of our shortcomings, which we've gone back. And we revised to include some of the stuff that we've done our written test on. That now that being said, all of the written, so if you were to like just to give you an example, I don't know if you could You can see this sheet. You can see all the chapters and everything. All of that is built into a standard operating guideline It does not change year after year. If it does, it changes after promotional process. So if you were wanted to test for Captain, you have a c you have a clear roadmap of what it takes to qualify What it takes to test, exactly the testing material you're going to be tested on down to the page so that if you could begin preparing for our captain exam, that may be two or three years from now. So the goal was to create that roadmap from start to finish. So that you don't get the 60-day notice or the 30-day notice, and now all of a sudden you're scrambling to prepare for the test. Roadmap from the time we hire to the time you make the highest testable rank, which is battalion chief if that's what you choose to do. But back to your original question. We have been looking at it and that's probably going to be a thing that's going to be done every so many years. I mean, no let me back. It's going to be. It has to be. The the fire service is so dynamic that it that if that if you don't do that, you're going to end up testing the guys on irrelevant information.

Chief Shannon Stone: So The second part to that was, well, how do you, how did you determine what it was? Well, it started out with essentially me. I know you know, but my background is heavily in operations, so I was very comfortable going through these and determining what books, what chapters, what pages. And what I term on books, we had a series of books. I made some suggestions. They made some suggestions. We ended up landing on the books We didn't use all of them, but there was a group of books that I wanted to use that I thought were going to be relevant. I was fine with any one of these books. I just thought the best was coming out of it. We ended up landing on that through a committee So yeah, it's it's an it's gonna be an evolving process. and my goal is this is each year we just kind of make a little bit better, you know. but I think Honestly, I mean I think it's one of the best processes that I've ever seen. And I'm not saying that because it's my department. These are things that that guys like you and me and People probably watching this podcast have talked about for years, but we never could do.

Corley: Right. No, I would have killed to be able to vote on who who should promote. Like, like as a as a backseat firefighter, to be able to have an opinion on m my opinion to to matter, you know? And not just not just my vote for my friends or or or put down people that I had a problem with, but to actually say, no, I think he is representative of what I want this place to be like. And to have that matter, excuse me, matter. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, that's that's it, that's the same thing that's that's been echoed by a lot of people quarterly is that same exact thing. Now Caveat to this. I work for a fire district. In the state of Florida, there's three different types of fire departments, career fire departments. You have county, municipal, you have what's called private fire district. The private fire districts answer to a board of five elected officials. Those five elected officials are my boss. so I don't have the the layers that you have like in my previous job in a city or county. I don't have an HR department, a finance department. I don't have city attorneys. I don't have to answer to a city manager that answers to a city council, that the city council is elected for things other than the best interest of the fire department. So I say all that to say this, that that, you know. The reason, a big reason why we could do this is because I because we work for a fire district that has a lot more flexibility than a city or a county. Like I said, if I was to try to do this in my last department in the city of Fawalty Beach. I think it would be pretty darn difficult because even even if we got buy off of within within the membership, which I I think we would, at least on most, if not all of it, we would probably run into all kinds of red tape with the city when it comes to you know, I mean Jesus man, you everything everything is a liability. Sure. You know what I'm saying?

Corley: When you read it, they operate from completely different parameters of of risk avoidance than that's what makes it a lot easier for us to do it, you know, where we're at for sure. That was actually one of Todd Edwards' questions. He was in chat and he asked about in today's environment, how important was it to get buy-in from HR, you know, and like you just basically answered his question by saying it's one of the things that you didn't have to worry about at your current organization. Chief Shannon Stone: Well the HR the HR for me at the time was the fire chief. Corley: Sure. Chief Shannon Stone: And really, you know, he you know when he brought me in there, I mean he gave me my marching orders and And the long short of it was don't go in left field and you're good. Here's your guardrails, man. You know, so I mean, I had the I had to get his buy off too. Like I ran a thing. You know, I didn't move forward without it. But for me, when I was developing as a deputy, I mean we didn't have HR, but I mean it had to he had to he had to buy off on it as well because he had to answer to the board if anything came up. But

Corley: You know, it worked and it was all good. I do gotta point out Kyle Ramakus did say comes from the guy who was double demoted. And I want to say double demoted, promoted, demoted, I think, is how it is the process, if I if I remember the story right Double demoted, promoted, rehired, demoted, fired, whatever. Okay. Some of that was not true. Okay. Chief Shannon Stone: Still way cooler than me, though. I can tell you that. Corley: No doubt about one of the coolest cats you can meet Yes, yes. 100%. I wanted to ask you about, you said it earlier and I wanted to I wanted to dig in a little bit, which is the people who rank well on the evaluation They definitely don't have a problem with it, which I know you said it kind of tongue in cheek because they're ranking well, but also because it's true. But what I wonder is what's the spin out for the people who rank poorly and how do their egos handle it? And I know you don't have a huge sample size, but I wondered how that works out. Chief Shannon Stone: Man, that's a great question, man. You know, I've I've seen a few guys here recently that I I think it's been beneficial to them. I think your eyes are open. It's like have you you know, I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to have a 360 eval done on you

Corley: You know, I I did it on purpose and I regretted it afterwards. Well my ego regretted it afterwards and then once once my bruised ego healed, I was actually able to grow. But yes. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, and I think that's a great analogy, a couple of the guys that have gone through, you know, and I've had conversations with them, you know, so I mean, especially the ones, you know, that we feel you know, have a tremendous amount of potential. And what I mean by that is that it, you know, and you start talking up with the right people in the right seats, right? You know, part of my job as the fire chief you know, as the deputy and down the battalions is to identify those that we feel that have the potential. And we and there's a there's a lot of measurements, right? Everything from character to skill set to motivation to how smart they are, how they process it, how they deal with people. But obviously the ones that you see have potential. You know, you're gonna feed them a little more. Why? Because they want to be fed a little more. You know, sometimes people jokingly say, well, that's favoritism. It's not favoritism. Everybody can get fed the equal amount. All you gotta do is express the interest and the motivation. And come and we'll have those conversations. But in doing so, I've had conversations with guys that have gone through it. And I think it it's really kind of enlightened a few of them. And they were actually Feelings were hurt as mine have been on a 360 eval, you know, because your your self-awareness is never completely what you think it is. Right. But once you but once you're able to get past those feelings, you know, I tell this all the time to everybody. I tell to my kids, you are talking to my three kids. You know, and you bring one of them in, they're going to tell you this. And I say it to firefighters all the time, listen, man, you know, an adversity is where you're going to be defined and it's where you're going to get better. Your choice, man. Every time you hit that wall, you hit that Piri valve that doesn't good do good. Listen, get pissed off. Have your feelings hurt. Let it go off your shoulder.

Chief Shannon Stone: Let it marinate. Then come back and ask yourself one simple question. Is this going to be a problem or an opportunity for me? Which one is it going to be? It's your choice. Almost always you have an opportunity in front of you to choose. You just have to find it. So where would be the opportunity for this? For the guy to go, you know, I don't want to be known as that guy. I didn't realize, I didn't realize people really thought that of me. Well listen, man, this is kind of the way they scourge and if you want, would you like my opinion? Yeah, and I'd give them my honest you know, direct, polite, helping opinion followed up with some coaching and stuff like that. So to answer your question, I've I've I've had several I've had a handful of guys actually do that and they really want to have conversations. They really want to get better and they're usually really productive. And I and I help them And tell them, hey, there's some things you should think about. My doors come bounce anything off of me. And then you have some that just they don't really say a whole lot. but I haven't, we haven't had any We haven't had any like I can't think of any like stories to tell you that are negative. I'm sure some people don't like it. But we haven't had any grievances. We haven't had we haven't had people bitching and complaining other than you know what you May hear occasion from firefighters is what we do, but sure.

Corley: If they're not complaining, they're not firefighters. And I would say it's it's the it's what they're complaining about that you really have to evaluate and make sure that that that you have to look and say some things that's hey that's what they're complaining about we're in a pretty good place but I I want to say and this is not talking about your organization it is talking about of course your Promotional process, but I would imagine that hypothetically speaking, if someone was the person that got the bruised ego and said this system is bullshit, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, I I'm sick of this. If if There's there's two types of people that are gonna score low in that system. It's the person that's gonna look at it and then grow from it, which is what the system is designed to to hopefully reward over time. And then there's the type of person that looks at it and goes, this is BS, this is their for problem, not my problem. In which case, the system is still doing its job by, I don't imagine they're going to score better the next time if they don't reflect and do something about it.

Chief Shannon Stone: Problem or opportunity. Corley: Yeah. Chief Shannon Stone: And if you and if you think it sucks, I'm okay with it. Get involved. Corley: Yeah. No, I love it. Chief Shannon Stone: Absolutely. Listen, if the union came back to me And the group came back to me and said, we want to relook at it, guess what we're going to do? They don't have to negotiate it. They don't have to bend my arm. If if the majority wants to look at it and they think we're going the wrong direction, I'd be stupid not to open it back up and look at it Corley: Right along. Chief Shannon Stone: Hence why I always have the union involved. You know, again, this ties for you, you have the culture and you have the morale and you you're doing things right and taking care of your people. We're not perfect, but you're taking care of your people. If they come up to you with a problem as a group and you ignore it, it doesn't make any sense to do that. Corley: No, that's Seth Drew, great question because it's kind of on topic of the 360 peer, well, directly on topic of 360. After promotion, do you continue on with annual 360 peer e-valves? And what are your thoughts on this?

Chief Shannon Stone: No, we don't. We need to. we've talked about it for like the last two and a half, three years, you know, and and one one thing I I've said this before, I totally underestimated when I kind of moved to the admin staff from a battalion role to the to the deputy of ops and so on is there's so much administrative work that goes on, even to keep a small organization, wheels turning, guys paid, benefits. you know, guys taken care of when they get hurt. There's just so many things. and they're because we're so resource light on administrative staff, especially in small organizations, things like that just get kick down the road. Sure. But no, we don't. We need to. In fact, it's on my list to to develop 360 Evals this year because we were supposed to do it last year's quarter of our officer training. because I've have experience with it. We did it in my last organization. I think it's beneficial if it's conducted the right way. We don't yet, but that, but that's in the plan. So maybe the four or five years I'm, well, I'll be retired in four, but maybe before that I'll come back and tell you how it works Is that we do it?

Corley: Is that a hard number? Are you in a drop the where it where it's guaranteed or is that just a a throwing a dart and that's the likely number? Chief Shannon Stone: well with this department I can do 10 years and they've got a a very nice pension. I just I have to do 10 years to get to it. I've said the only way that I'm probably going to stay because I mean I'll be 59. You know, so that gave me almost 40 years. And you know, I want to I want to enjoy the rest of my life and I want to spend every penny of my pensions and my investment with my wife. And I I said there's only two things that's gonna keep me working longer is is you know, one, if if there's a merger in the South End, which there's been talks back and forth and and it's not, it's really kind of just Quiet right now. but if if some reason that does happen where I could be a part of helping that happen, maybe. And then probably the most likely one if I do stay is that, you know My youngest son, Caleb, he just got hired on by Scambia County Fire Rescue, which is where I spent 14, 14 years of my career in Pensacola there. but but I mean I I just put something on social media probably about a month ago when he graduated. Now they're in the now they're past the fire academy and now they're actually doing relevant training. But He's talked to me a lot, you know, about well, hey, will you consider staying longer? Because I told him like, you know, it's whole things. I want to take him to FDTN, take them to meet all you guys. And I said you're good. I said you're gonna be way better at the job than I've ever thought about being Yeah, there may be an opportunity, you know. He works close to me, so I mean it just depends.

Corley: I mean family matters Then you then you throw in Young Family on the job and holy smokes. Chief Shannon Stone: oh he's eating he's eating it up, man. I I I love it. We've every every night we have a conversation. you know, include an hour before I came on with you about, you know, what he's doing over there. And I'll tell him that's the most exciting part is it's it's cool that you, you know, when you when one of your kids are following your footsteps, because I just wanted to be happy and love whatever they do. And all three of my kids have found things that they're very passionate about. But it but it is super cool, you know, my youngest now that, you know, he's found something he wants to do in his adult life. But to watch how excited he is about the job that you, me, and so many people love This is the best job in the world. And to see that in him, the how excited he is, that that's the coolest thing for me, honestly. Because I can just see I'm like, oh, he's got it. He ain't got nothing else. This is what he wants to do, you know. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Corley: Dragon coming at you. Chris, Dragon, Scott, Chief, on the hierarchy of organizational priorities, budget, staffing, inspections, etc. where do you put training? Chief Shannon Stone: at the top. Corley: I was gonna say does this guy know you? Isn't this a soft toss? Chief Shannon Stone: Come on, come on, Chris. We just talking today, man, about come bringing I was just talking to him today about bringing Corley: him out i think he was sending you i think he was i think he was setting you up for to to knock one out but go ahead yeah no no it's it's it's you know one of the first things that's cut in fire department budgets is training Chief Shannon Stone: training and it just absolutely makes no sense to me. It is the very reason we exist. Like it's it. Like and and everything should revolve around training. Granted we we have to make sure we do all of our responsibilities. So I don't want it as an excuse not to do those. But my philosophy has been, you know, and continues to be and will be that training is our highest priority. You know, there's not many days during the week that some form of training shouldn't be done, you know. so as far as funding that, that would, you know, if we had, you know, hypothetically come in and we had to start doing budget cuts and stuff, you know, there's gonna be a lot of other things I'm gonna cut before I'm gonna cut training if that makes sense.

Corley: No, absolutely. Absolutely. Chief Dennis Toronto, first line fire service training coming out. She said, is the promotional system successful because of the culture in Midway? And would this system work within any other culture? And I'm going to ask a follow-up question after I let you field that one. Chief Shannon Stone: No, that's a great question. And the answer is pretty simple. If it had a completely different culture, I don't think it'd work. right i don't i think our our culture cultivates it like our culture our culture actually built it that's probably a better way to put it we really did like you know the the the group wanted these things because of our what they believed in and their culture, what they believed their mission was. Like I was saying earlier, you know, I said I've said this for years. It's in my class and I I preach it at work, like we've got to be ready to rescue our kids. You know, and I and everybody says that, but that it but it but that is the reality of it. you know, that, you know, we have a sense of purpose, you know, that purpose-driven culture that becomes important to you. So when you have that, then putting the right people in the right seats becomes extremely important. But if you don't have that culture, you know, and listen, in firefighters defense, to be honest with you, you know, this organizations that create really shitty cultures, man. You know, I mean I've seen it, I've been a part of it in other departments, you know, that that it you know, I mean, they get to the point where they just survive and they They, you know, they hit a paycheck and and go home because that's the way that their organization is because there's so much that's not in their control.

Speaker 3: Right. Chief Shannon Stone: Those organizations, yeah, I don't think this would I I don't think it worked at all. In fact, I think the unions the unions would fight it heavily. You know, and and if and given their circumstances, a lot of them I I can't say that I blame them. Corley: Blame them. No, no, without a doubt. I'm with you. Yeah, I could absolutely see that. Because one thing, the one the follow-up question I wanted to have is how much of this comes from, because I firmly believe in in I I know you can lead from any position, so that's not what I'm saying, but I firmly believe the culture of an organization is directed by the person at the top. And positive or negative or by What's it what's the word abdication like just letting it become what it becomes. But how much of this leaves when you leave, how much of this was from Kanzig in front of you? developing it, setting you up for success and how much leaves when you leave if you don't have a proper succession or or develop it if that if that makes sense what I'm trying to ask. Chief Shannon Stone: No, it makes complete sense. And it's it it's right in line with everything that we're trying to do. So Yeah, I did start with Chief Jonathan Kanzik. He was the fire chief for 18 years, close personal friend of mine. I went to high school with. And we started in two different, we started in Full Walling together, and he went to City of Mobile. And then came back this way and then, you know, as luck had it, we ended up working back together. But he had already established a good foundation there, you know, and and when he was talking to me about coming over there, my original plan to retire was to go to a Scambia and finish out some years there because I was in state retirement. he basically, you know, said, hey, I want you to come over and And do the things that you keep talking about doing. And one of the things that convinced me is they had that foundation, right? You know, so it it really it really had a good match because I didn't feel like I was going into organization where I could walk through the engine bay and they didn't understand the value of having your gear on the floor ready for the next fire.

Chief Shannon Stone: They didn't understand the value of difference between a hooligan and a halligan. Like That could have been more difficult. So what what's my our purpose when he brought me in was success succession planning, was to make it better. He decided to retire earlier than What he told me in retrospect, he told me that was kind of his plan. He just didn't tell me because he thought I wouldn't take the deputy job because I would decide to do this. Right. But now now where we're at now, we're constantly talking about success. planning. We're talking about it. We're putting in our documents. And this goes back to the original question. And I wrote an article that my brother kind of pushed me on about six months ago. And it's, you know, it was called getting the right people on on the bus and the right seats. And that is succession planning. So my job now is to ensure that I put the right fire chief in a position to continue the culture, to continue the proactive fire and EMS culture. So that it's important that we're great and we're not good at the job. It's important to put a fire chief in there that cares deeply about the men, that makes decisions to ensure that they're taken care of, so those men don't have to negotiate for shit they already deserve, that we just automatically work with them and we make sure they have what they need in a very fair, responsible way and manage it. Also, my job to make sure the depth mine and my deputy's job to make sure we put the right deputy chief in there to continue the operational culture because what we do in my department that I think may vary in others is that our ops chief is our ops chief Like he is the last stop. If you go in there and you ask him about something operationally based, you're hard pressed for him not to have a good answer for you, unlike a lot of places. We We don't overburden him with administrative shit that has nothing to do with operations.

Corley: Wow. Chief Shannon Stone: His focus is operations and training. My focus is. to strategically run the fire department and try to take as much off if I can at him so that he's out doing what he was doing this past week, doing three days of search training. with with firefighters, right? and then it goes down to the battalion level too, which is why we have a professional portfolio and we have the period, how do we put those people because the battalion, if we're doing it, if we're doing it correctly We're putting the right people in the right places to eventually move into the right positions. Corley: Right, and continue to build things. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, and the goal, and the goal is is to do better than than Jonathan did. And I and I and I've told the people below me, your goal, like I'm hoping when I leave here, you know, you guys say that I did a little bit better than him And then, you know, when I'm gone, you know, look back, you guys come in and do a hell of a lot better than I did. And in my last organization, which is the, you know, I loved for the city of Fort Wallong Beach you know, a super proactive fire culture, older type city organization, small department. You know, we went to a handful of fires. The guys are really, really good at that stuff. but they sucked at succession planning Which is why I'm not there, which is why nobody ever stays there. There's one thing I'll criticize is the city does not do a good job at that. So for me, you know, coming over here, I was like, well, I know exactly what I'm not gonna do And what I'm going to work on. And then Jonathan brought me in and he was just talking about succession planning. Right people, right places. This is what we got to do. You know, so it's it's super, super important. And then and you know You talk about legacy, you know, my legacy of my kid, my kids are what they're gonna say about me when I'm gone. That's the most important thing. But if I'm gonna remove that out of the picture and say, What's the next most important? It's once I leave midway, they can look back and say, Well, what is that organization?

Chief Shannon Stone: look like now that Shannon's gone. Right. Is it a sh is it in shambles because we put the wrong people in the right places? Or did they somehow, someway managed to put the right people in the right places and the culture got better the performance got better and the way we take care of ourselves got better. Like that's the whole goal. So it's super, super important. And Yeah, it's you know it's it's a lot of work. I'm finding out now at this position with the planning and the stuff that has to go on with expansion and You know, and a generation retiring out and a new generation coming in. It's definitely work. But it's but it's a but it's a good problem to have. You know, it's it's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, you know. Corley: So Rob Fisher coming at you. Rob F and Fisher says, as you moved from company officer leading the work. Up to Fire Chief. What belief about leadership did you have to unlearn? And how did that change the way you lead today? Chief Shannon Stone: Ooh, unlearn, man. It's a great one. So a good friend of mine. Corley: That's the opposite of a soft toss, by the way. Go ahead.

Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah. A good friend of mine, her name is Ginny Craner. She's the fire chief of the city of Pensacola. The first female fire chief in over the 200 years. history of that fire department. Great fire chief, well respected. And she spoke at our gala this past year and she said, you know, we need to learn, unlearn, and relearn again. I was like, oh my God, that's good. Like I never come up with these quotes. Like I always learn from somewhere. But I'm I that reminds me of that when Rob said that. You know, what do you have to learn, unlearn, and then learn again? I'm I'm not entirely sure other than what I Underestimated was how much work it takes to to be the leader that you want to be each rank you go up. Because every rank you go up, there is just More challenges and more layers. I I don't know, Rob. I mean, that's a good question, man. You kind of stumped me. Like, what did I have to? I feel like I'm constantly unlearning and learning stuff again. I mean, in the most basic sense because things change so much. But if there's one takeaway from when I was working on, you know, operations to the staff, I don't know, Rob. I guess I'll have an answer for you in South Bend in a couple months when I'm teaching with you. I have to think about that one to really nail it down. No doubt.

Corley: Okay. Chief Shannon Stone: Sorry, sorry, Rob. I failed you on that one, brother. I think about that. Corley: I liked it. I'm looking through these questions here. I'm looking through these questions. I don't understand Steve's Mauch. I don't understand your question too much. You might reword it and try again. looking here, what would you say to Chiefs? Okay, there we go. This is from Ed Berg. He's saying, what would you say to the Chiefs that are removing scores from rankings? so they can place individuals in the ranking they want. He's asking for a friend. Chief Shannon Stone: I disagree with it. I mean that's usually it that's usually Am I explaining my sorry, that's my freaking killer dog. In my experiences, that's usually a negotiated from management to union where management wants to have the ability. to to pick out of the top five or ten or whatever they call it. Now listen in a perfect world, I get it. You know, I'd like to have the opportunity to do that, but I think it opens so many doors for perception of unfairness. And I've seen it time and time again in my career. As a union guy, I've never been an advocate for. Because it's come up multiple times and we have we have adamantly opposed it and we've never allowed it to happen because it because if you don't have the right person in that right position, then the right decisions aren't gonna be made. And even if you have the right person It's still going to be a perception of unfairness. So here's what I would challenge those chiefs is to develop a process that you end up with the result that you want. And I think for us, that was our goal, was we wanted to develop a process where I didn't feel like I needed to pick from the top five or the top three or the top ten or whatever it is. And and and honestly, I mean I've said it earlier, like, I mean, you know, the people who rose to the top the top, you know, handful of candidates that placed one through five or six or three or four or whatever it was that was testing, I would have taken any of them. They were all good. Like I would have had a hard time sometimes choosing which ones to to take. So no, I mean I guess to wrap the question up, I mean I'm not an advocate for it.

Chief Shannon Stone: I think there's a perception That can easily work against the leadership and the quote-unquote management side of unfairness. It's just too many. Fix the other problem and you don't need to do that. Corley: You know, but that's just my opinion. Speaker 3: That's just my opinion. Corley: No, it's great. It's great. I got two questions coming at you here. Different topics. I like this one come from Kyle Piverall. He always asks good questions, but he said the majority of organizationals, let me let me start. The majority of organizational slash policy changes normally comes from the admin level. What are street level things we can do to help influence this type of change and leadership style? So what would you like to see I guess yeah what would affect you coming from the street level is what I guess I would ask Chief Shannon Stone: Well, you know, a lot of times in organizations, man, there's a gap from the street level to the to the admin side, you know, and I think that's one of the biggest yeah. Yeah, that's the biggest problem. I mean, if you can fix that disconnect. you know, you you can actually have that conduit of change coming up. But but you mentioned earlier like leaderships, you know It can be done at every level, right? And you can lead at every level, certainly, but you know, it really the the the pulse and the pace starts at the top. At the top. Especially in the was a small organization. So one of the things that we've done is we've created that conduit, that conduit of of that roadmap of the ability for the guys to bring stuff up. I mean everything with From overcommunicating the why behind what we do to we work hard on transparency. Agendas, minutes battalion briefs, I mean anything that goes on, you know, we have we have, you know, policies that require our officers to sit down with our firefighters to go over the officer minutes. They're required to talk to their people, that if their people have issues or questions or suggestions or concerns, to bubble them up at the officers' meetings to have those discussions. Anytime we're trying to make a major initiative in the fire department, we will put a committee together, not just to say we did a committee, but we sincerely grab people to try to help develop it.

Chief Shannon Stone: So if you don't if If you can close that disconnect, and again, from a firefighter's perspective, that can be difficult because you don't control it. But if there's a disconnect, it can be it can be really difficult. Now, if there's a disconnect, what I could what I would propose to you is is to find somebody, you know, that has a seat at the table. You know, good company officers have seats at a lot of tables. Well-respected battalion chiefs have seats at even larger tables, right? So if you know these individuals, you know, you have relationships with them and you can have discussions with them to help kind of get things floated up. Whether it's to fix a flawed policy, to create something, or to update something, that's probably going to be your best avenue to do it if for some reason there's just a major disconnect from ground level up. You know, find find the decision makers, man. you know, start to start talking to them, then of course we could go into a rabbit hole on that. You got to have credibility before you even get to that point. Sure. So if you're a six-year, a six month, twelve month, twenty-four-month guy I mean you you may just have to be patient, you know, to have credibility. I remember being on the job three years and was wondering if anybody was ever gonna listen to me, right You know, I was a 21-year-old kid too at the time. You know, 2021, whatever it was, I started really young. But but, you know, having that credibility at your level So that you, you know, can have those conversations where they want to hear your opinion. And for us, we can be really impatient, you know. sometimes it takes a little time to build that credibility up, to have those connections To have people that have connections all the way up, especially again, especially when there's that large disconnect. So I don't know if that helped or not, but No, no, I think absolutely.

Corley: I think it's a beautiful. I mean, the major issue is the disconnect. Deal with the disconnect and more on your and focus on your what you can control. Seth Drew says our recent talent pool hasn't met our standards for interviews or physical testing. What new channels or criteria are you using to find top-tier applicants? Chief Shannon Stone: another great question. So here in the panhandle of Florida, state of Florida in general, but especially the panhandle, there there is a shortage of firefighters. So I mean it's a great You know, it's a great time to find a job up here. And the state's actually relaxing a lot of the qualifications where they're actually allowing other states to have reprocity coming in, which the state has never done because they finally realize there's a need for it. But what do To your question, what we do up here is we actually do a lot of recruiting out of the fire academies academies before they're they're actually certified. So in the state of Florida, you have to be a state certified firefighter, usually a state certified firefighter EMT or paramedic to really go to work anywhere to get your foot in the door. so we're grabbing a lot of these young kids before their schooling is complete because a lot of places won't even look at you in the state of Florida career fire departments without already being a certified firefighter and a minimum a firefighter EMT. So To the point of your question at the very beginning of the scrap, we talked about the hiring process and how important it is. We actively go find these individuals of fire academies and one of the areas that we've had a lot of luck in is is our lifeguard programs. We have some pretty top-tier lifeguard programs from Pensacola Beach to Navarre Beach, to Fulwalton Beach to Destin, all the way to Panama City Beach. And these are top USLA programs that that breed really good athletic young guys and gals. We've had luck kind of recruiting from that area too. But what we're doing differently is we're investing money and time in these investment individuals instead of hitting the easy button and just waiting for a certified guy to show up. Well we got to hire him because he's certified. Now you're you're hiring somebody that doesn't meet the standards. The other thing that we do too unofficially is you know we do have essentially like a no hire list and what that basically looks like is if the hiring board of five people, you know, we we interview 30 people and five out of that 30 All five of the hiring board unanimously says this individual we don't believe will fit into our organization.

Chief Shannon Stone: They just get moved to the side. Corley: Okay. Chief Shannon Stone: I didn't get moved to the side. We just when we get down to a certain point on the list, we make a we make a decision to when we're going to test again. The point being is that we don't We don't bend our standards. We're not perfect. I mean, it makes it sound like we are. We're not, but we just don't. And I won't. You know, we'll go out and we will spend more money and we will invest more time. and interviewing and recruiting to try to get the right person, you know. and then after that, we have a twelve month probationary phase phases three phases they go through quarterly tests their easy tests or past pass tests they have an evaluation and it's 100 subjective And they have to meet standards on all like 20 criteria. If they don't meet one, not meet standards, they go to performance improvement plans. If they don't, if they don't improve, we ship them out. so the vetting that first year is pretty serious I think we get it right the vast majority of the time. I mean, since I've been there, we have, you know. so Depending on what state you're at or where you're at, that might be options that you can do. I mean it works it works pretty good for us, you know.

Corley: No doubt, no doubt. Chief Shannon Stone: A little bit more time and money to do it though. Corley: I understand Steve Mounts' question. I think I was just reading it wrong. He says I may have missed it earlier, but aside from the book knowledge, is there a mentoring process built in for those looking to promote prior to being put in the seat? Chief Shannon Stone: There's not a formal mentoring process, but what we have developed the last six years is that every rank has got what we call a step-up training program. It's very comprehensive. So starting with driver There's certain minimum qualifications you have to have as a firefighter to be eligible to go into what's called the step up driver program. And then after that, it's a you you basically Kind of give you a backdrop on it. You have to have a 40-hour state class in the state, 40-hour hydraulics class. you have to be recommended by your company officer. Then once accepted, you go into an in-house 50-hour driver academy class with the fire department. Then from there you get a taskbook that you go out into the field, you're assigned your company, your captain, and your driver actually go through a series of training. It takes about six five or six months of tons of comprehensive signed off, not just done it once, but do a competency. Once it's signed off, from there it goes to the deputy chair. The deputy chief actually goes through a test out process, which has two practical scenarios that mirror exactly what they're going to have when they promote for that particular position. Different scenarios, but the same exact process And then if you look at company officer and battalion chief, it's a similar process and a similar time frame. The difference between battalion chief And captain and driver is in order for you to be eligible to be trained up as a battalion chief, you have to have the consensus of all three battalion chiefs. So we just have one battalion, you know, so we have three battalion chiefs. So if one battalion chief doesn't agree, then that person does not get a green light to test. So there is no free pass. So you have to have credibility. And you have to have the reputation so that all three battalion chiefs say, you know what, I think Corley, I think he's ready to do it.

Chief Shannon Stone: Another guy says, I'm sorry, he just came off my shift. Don't take it wrong, but I don't think he's ready. He needs to spend more time. It does not go to the deputy from there. So we have we have built in comprehensive training programs that since I've been there, we actually created an incentive program. Because I'm gonna I'm gonna share something that's gonna blow everybody away that's watching this. It's important to actually pay your people and take care of them. Corley: What? Chief Shannon Stone: So we built incentive programs so that each time they get this qualification, they start receiving an incentive In addition to that, if they have to operate in an acting position, so let's just say we got a guide towards bicep just three days ago. So we have to put somebody into an acting driver's position, then they immediately get out-of-class pay on top of their incentive pay. The point being is that we're asking an enormous amount from these individuals when it comes to training and preparation. Because back to the question about 30 minutes ago, where does training lay as a priority for us? It's at the top. But along with that. You know, we need to make sure that we take care of our people by compensating them the best that in the fairest way that we can. This is going to be an incentive that's going to continue to increase as we increase the demands on our firefighters. So all the way through the ranks We have these training programs and that there is nothing about them that's easy. And what I mean by that is like, I mean, if you're into the job, they're easy, you're gonna enjoy them. But I mean you there there are certain benchmarks that you gotta have to get to a place. You got recommendations. Then you got to go through the process. And then on every single rank, with the exception of battalion, you got to be tested out and approved to ride up as a driver or ride up as a captain. And that doesn't even make you eligible at that point. You still have to spend a certain time in rank as a step up before you become eligible to even sit in for the promotional exam exam of the next the next rank up. Wow.

Corley: So it's pretty comprehensive. It's very comprehensive, yeah. Chief Shannon Stone: It's designed that way, intentionally, because you know the the the whole training aspect is that you know the you know the gap between us getting hurt and killed on the fire ground is training. Corley: You know, check, check, check, check. All right, you got it. Sorry, I was getting an echo. I'm getting an echo on something something, but moving on. We got more I got a few more questions I want to get to because I love all three of these questions, so I want to get to all of them What type of class? This comes from Jay Mozizar. I'm not sure who his that name is, but Jay Moses R says, what types of classes, regardless of required cert, do you think are most important to promote to company officer? Chief Shannon Stone: Well, I can only speak in the state of Florida. Honestly, man, for company officer, the best course when you start talking about being prepared to do the job as a company officer, I'm gonna move the leadership stuff aside Okay, because that could be a whole nother conversation. But let's just talk about the tactical task oriented skills. is hands-on conferences and lecture conferences from reputable instructors, credible instructors.

Corley: Boom. Chief Shannon Stone: Most of them out there are, honestly, but For anybody who teaches on the circuit, they're going to tell you there there are some that you you need to kind of be aware of because they're going to mislead you. the other big thing, and we're actually contemplating doing this, I think we're going to end up doing it is is fdtn i i tell i'm a fan of fdtn and what jim mccormick and those guys do up there one hundred percent we're we're talking about making the company officer class a prerequisite to To sit in for the promotional exam for captain, which for anybody who's familiar with FDTN, you've got to go through the engine class to get to the company officer class. We are small departments, so our budget's not crazy. So we funnel a lot of our money to FDT. each year instead of instead of going to FDIC. So we send a lot of guys up there. But I can tell you that you know FD I told Jim this. I I had the really cool opportunity of going up there last October and And sitting in on the command class and just shadowing everything and really getting to see the behind the scenes. And I've known Jim for, you know, a good long time. but as a young firefighter, I I honestly just wasn't aware of FDT. And man, I told him when I was up there, I said, I wish I would have known about you guys when I was in my twenties when you started this place. Because man, I could have been so much better. You know, the people that teach there. I mean, holy smokes Those guys are the those guys are the they're kind of like the silent I hate to use the word heroes. That's not what I'm looking for, but they those guys just fly under the radar And they teach up there because they just want to share unbelievable knowledge. And then the facilities they have up there where you can, you know, like the command, the combat class we were doing. with the command then they went to 35 working fires in like four days. You know how long it take me to get 35 working fires in the apartment I'm at now. Right, right Right. You know, and and I and I've told, you know, I've told my son this that, you know, he gets a year under and we're going, man.

Chief Shannon Stone: We're hitting all the series because that's so beneficial. So to Jay back to your question. was what could it do? Well, I can tell you just in my personal experiences and guys that I know that are really, really good at the job, is the, you know, going to conferences. Immersing yourself in it, studying the lecture part. You have to understand the why behind what we do. Once you send understand the why, you can operate in the gray area. My brother used to say, he likes to say, you understand the black and the white, you can operate very effectively in the gray area area. gray and what that means is if you understand the why behind things the gray starts making sense the puzzles start coming together and then fdtn just provides like you know if you could afford to go to ftn and And over a period of time, just start chipping away at those classes. The stuff that you will learn from those guys, the FDTN, you will not learn anywhere else, hands down. Now, I gotta say this though, I gotta caution you you got to pace yourself. Okay. There's a lot of guys that just immerse themselves so much into it that it has an it has an impact on their personal life. And not to get into that, but there's a balance that a lot of of guys like us have struggled with over the years. And we usually don't figure it out until we're like deep into it and we realize that, you know, there are some things that that we sacrificed unintentionally. So I would caution you as you do that. you know, to pace it with your with your family life, your personal life, and everything else. But those two areas, I mean, if you're asking me, when it when it comes down to it, though those the areas, which is why both those areas I mentioned are measured in our promotional exam because we feel it's so important. That's what's that's gonna that's really what's gonna prepare you, I think, a lot for the company officer position.

Corley: Boom. And I like how you I mean because you said a whole nother discussion, pushing leadership to the side. But I like what Kyle Romagus did say in the YouTube chat. He said, Nuggets from the right seat, he says from the back of the room, cough, cough. So I know you said I know you shoved leadership to the side, but if you can catch that class, it is worth it. Okay. Lou on 72, Lou on ladder 72, let me be very clear. That is Rob Effen Fisher. What leadership trait will the next generation of Fire Chiefs need that your generation didn't? See Rob's getting cerebral on you, so I know he is, man. He's throwing he's throwing someone's hard and dropping in. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah, man. That's a loaded question. It could go a lot of different directions. I don't know man. this is gonna sound super basic and almost too basic. Just care care more about your men. Like, and I know they do. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I've always been critical of Chiefs, and I think I have every right to be now that I've been in that position for a while. But We lose sight a lot of times. And I think and I've said this for years, and I continue to maintain this philosophy as a fire chief, is putting others before self. You know, I made a lot of mistakes in my life, but I can tell you one thing I have worked my ass off to do, you know, as a man and as a as a father and a husband is to try to put others before myself. And I think if If fire chiefs could focus on doing that more, I I think they would be more impactful. You know, but here's the thing. If you if you haven't practiced that in your career, don't expect to do it as a the chief. So that could be that could lead you into another rabbit hole. You know, a lot of times guys get promoted in our job and they're the wrong guys to get promoted. But part of the reason why they get promoted is because of of you know half-assed promotional processes and more importantly, organizations don't do a good job at encouraging people to move up. So the good guys Stay at company officers, they stay at firefighters, and the guys that aren't that good just move on up.

Chief Shannon Stone: And before you know it, those guys are in positions that are making decisions that affect My life, your life, the organization's culture, the direction. You know, I mean I've said this, you know, a handful of times, and my brother reminded me of my own advice before I took this job. If not you, then who, man? Like You know, so I say all that that if you don't do it, practice it when you're younger. It's not like you're just gonna magically become a chief and have an epiphany. You know, it's like it's like, you know, I mean your certain way as a teenager, you're probably gonna be similar when you're an adult, you know. I mean But I don't know, Rob, you got some tough ones, but I I would probably say that's one of the things that I've I've seen some chiefs out there, especially the R network, you know, over this stuff that are really good at it, but I've just seen so many. And all that, and I will say this though, I'll say this. Maybe some local guys in my, you know, in the last county I'm working is listening. Like the tide's changing, my friends, at least for us here in the panhandle. Like, you know, the county that I worked in before Okaloosa, which is You know, it sits between Panama City and Pensacola, the Four Wall and Destin area, like there's a lot of career departments over there and they're most most of them are pretty small, but they all work together. Man The Chiefs that have been promoted over the last seven, eight years, they are home runs, man. Like so I'm sitting here like I'm bagging on Chiefs, but in my own area. You know, we've got guys, you know, that are that are being promoted in all these departments in Oklahoma County that were that they were the movers and shakers like you guys. You know, now they're moving up. So maybe we are starting to see a swing. Maybe we are starting to see some cheap that are really wanting to put you know others before themselves and you know and focus on building you know the training culture on what's important. So

Corley: And I know I could like what your brother said, which you bring up David James, DJ, one of my top, I always say one of my top like five Stone brothers of anybody named Stone. But it reminded me of 343, scrap 343 with Chief Richardson when he was saying there comes a point in your career when you owe it to the department. You owe it to the the men and women of the department to promote. Because it's time to give back. It's not about you anymore. And it was and he said it in a much more eloquent manner, but that was the gist of it. And that one hit. Like that was like, whoa. So and I maybe that's maybe we're seeing that come around. All right, one more here. And this one's from JV81. He says, how do you stay grounded in the job while dealing with everything on your plate as the chief? Chief Shannon Stone: I go to fires. Corley: There you go. Chief Shannon Stone: Not even a hesitation. Well, I mean, you know, I wish I could say I'd go to a lot of them. You know, we we work right outside of Pensacola. It's a it's a newer suburban area. So I mean we we covered the entire south end of the county with two other departments. so we do we do the guys actually go to a decent amount of fires given you know our our our demographics. But but in all seriousness, like you know, I've been asked that question before as I stay connected to things I absolutely love You know, and I I I I wrote a little article thing I submitted a while back, just kind of disappeared, but but one of them was like that is I I I go to fires, I put myself in the environment. that that motivate me, you know. I don't have to go to fires. I have a deputy chief. I have three battalion chiefs. I'm surrounded by chiefs in other departments, but it's something I thoroughly enjoy doing I make a deliberate effort to put me around stuff that that motivates me, grounds me, and reminds me of why I I I do what I do. And and you have to, and I've definitely in the last 12 months January is a year for me as a fire chief, so a little over 12 months.

Chief Shannon Stone: I've definitely found out what's really changed perspective is I have to I have to I have to make a deliberate effort. To do that. Yeah. Because you get so you get so busy. You know, this morning I I I was up at five. I was got an exercise in. I was at work by 7. 38-ish. Around 7 30, I sat in front of a computer with exception of 30 minutes lunch until I left today at 5 30. I was just whooped. Yeah. But there were things I had to get done, but those that schedule just pulls you away. So you got to make that You got to make that that deliberate effort. And, you know, and I still, you know, I've mentioned this before in other chats that I've had that, you know, on Fridays, I've learned this from Chief many years ago where I make rounds and I I still continue to do that as the fire chief. Not as good as I was doing. I have got to get better at it, you know. But I make rounds and I I sit down with the companies, the battalions are not allowed in and to be in the meetings or the informal meetings and they know it. They know exactly why. They're cool with it. It's my opportunity to talk with them. No chain of command. Sometimes we just bullshit about what's going on. Other times they've got some They got some some good questions. They know that it stays with me. It doesn't go any further. I never throw anybody on the bus. It just helps me adjust my leadership sales. You know, it's an opportunity for me to talk with them and and kind of have some coffee with them and and see make sure they have everything they need. So that helps a lot too. It helps me get grounded, you know. I mean I mean, firemen are, you know, I said this at a eulogy of a buddy of mine who just passed away a couple weeks ago, man. It's a fireman of my heroes, man. Like I'd I love hanging out with them and sitting in sitting at the kitchen table and having coffee. You know, that's another way that keeps me grounded, you know, and I and I I do it because I enjoy doing it, but I do it.

Chief Shannon Stone: I see all the chiefs that I I grew up under that I aspired to be like would do that. And I just always appreciated them sitting around and just bullshitting with us and catching up and allowing us to allowing us to vent to them. So I would say probably those two areas is is is what I deliberately do. You know. Corley: I can say that everybody loved the instant answer of I Go to Fires and it was max points, max points, mic drop, mic drop, mic drop from the YouTube audience. So absolute 100% approval from the internet audience. So that takes me to one of my favorite questions I love to ask. I absolutely love this question. Book or books that you think firefighters should be reading? Doesn't have to be a firefighter book, but what books do you think firefighters should be reading? Chief Shannon Stone: Well you you're gonna think I'm just trying to make you feel good, but the search book, the last one you did. Honestly, like hey, you wrote in it. I didn't write in it. I don't know how, but I appreciate it. Yeah, it was pretty cool But I mean that that that right there, you know, we we bought a bunch of them actually when they came out and and put them in the firehouses, you know, because it's just it's just like tons of You know, it's like a book for the ADD firefighter. You know, you got one subject, you just go on to the next subject, you just go on to the next subject. You know, You know, aside from that, I say this every single time, and it's been my opinion's probably not going to change, is that you know I'm a I'm a big leadership guy. you know, I because it the communication You know, is and how you lead it just ties into everything we're trying to do. Like if you don't communicate effectively, then you you're not really going to be successful what you do. It ties into leadership. And John Maxwell is a guy. you know, his books that I've read and kind of studied over the years. And there's so many things that that he teaches. You know, I've said this a million times. He he knows nothing about firefighting. but knows everything about human beings. You know, and he he has so many good leadership lessons.

Chief Shannon Stone: A lot of this other stuff he talks about is is you know is faith-based, you know, so it really connects with me. You know, so I tell people when they're looking for leadership books is that any one of John's books I think are are really really good. Aside from that, man, there's there's there's a lot of there's a lot of good ones out there. But if I'm being perfectly honest with you, your book is the only one. Well your book and Castros and Brush's book are the only two books I picked up probably in the last three or four four years because I just feel like I've been overwhelmed. Like my free time. I believe it is not sitting and reading books on the weekend unlike some of these other fire nerds. I just, you know, I'm out doing Corley: Trying to be deliberate and go to fires and and make your rounds. That's it. All right. No, 100%. Hey. And I always always say I was a big I I got to I'm proud to be a part of the book of search, but I didn't write any of it. I just I was just facilitator i was just a gas pedal and so all the 44 authors i think it's i may get the numbers wrong 44 authors 47 articles that made it happen you and your brother included and a lot of other great firemen who invested their knowledge into it and And 100%. I love it. so thank you for that. And I had one more question because I said I was done, but there was one more that popped up. And it's from it's from DJ 850 Fireman or something on YouTube. But he says, what's it like having a younger brother who can surf better than you asking for a friend.

Chief Shannon Stone: He you know at this point in our life he probably can't surf better than me But for the but for the record, for the 40-something years before that, I served way better than him. Corley: So way better. I wondered. I didn't know if there was I wasn't sure if that was I didn't know I don't know a lot of DJs in the 850, but I was wondering. Okay We do a thing called the Five Questions for Firefighters. It's been a while since you've done it and the questions have changed. The rules haven't, which is there is no correct answer, just your opinion. And the points are arbitrary, passed out by me with the help of the audience. So, Chief Shannon Stone, are you ready for the N I don't even know the five questions for firefighters version 5. 0. Chief Shannon Stone: I'm ready, man. Hit me. Corley: Number one. You can be anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Chief Shannon Stone: I don't know, man. I was gonna say a surfer, a professional surfer, but that was like my my much much younger years. You know, that's a really tough question, quite honestly, because this is the only thing I've ever known. This is what I absolutely love doing You know, if I wasn't doing this, I'd probably be doing something, you know, entertaining people. You know, I love the water, fishing, boating, stuff like that. You know, I'd be retired. That's what I'm gonna do in four years is exactly what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be retired. Be retired. Do a whole lot of I I'm gonna be I'm gonna be camping, riding motorcycles, you know, surfing, fishing, traveling. Right on. That's gonna be my other job other than the fire department.

Corley: That is his other job other than the fire department. And I meant to make I meant to mention this when DJ piped in. he y for to get the other stone brother episode 353 if nothing changes because sometimes I add a special episode But if nothing changes between now and then, about two months from now, DJ Stone is coming on to discuss. So he will be coming back on the scrap. But that being said, back to the questions for firefighters. Number two, it's Job Town. It's time You're in route and responding. Think of the scene from Backdraft where he slaps that tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while in route? Chief Shannon Stone: Something from Too Short. I know that sounds weird, but I grew up, man, I'm gonna grew up in the 80s. You know, I grew up with you know, when rap came out. Corley: Right on So do you have one? Because there I the reason I asked for specifics is because there's a Spotify playlist and your answer will get added to the playlist that people download and listen to. Chief Shannon Stone: So if you have a I'm gonna tell you right now because I'm trying to recall it, but I'm I'm gonna look at it and get it right.

Corley: Okay. And don't ask like sometimes on songs I can help out if they just give me a lyric or something, but here I am zero help. Chief Shannon Stone: Just another day by too short. Corley: Just another day by too short. Yeah, here. Beautiful. No, you get it. Yeah. And the thing is is max points for too short. Probably one of the biggest requests we get is more hip-hop. And more old school hip hop can never hurt. Number three, so backs points on the song. Number three, cold weekend at the station. Checks are done, training is done. Food is simmering in the crock pot. You're in the day room. I don't know how cold it gets in the panhandle, but it's a nice cold, I don't know, in the 50s you know there whatever you call cold but it you're clicking through the channels what's the show what's the movie that no matter how many times you've seen it before you stop and finish that movie what's that movie for you Chief Shannon Stone: There's two of them, honestly. another rap related one Friday. That's a classic, man. Friday? Friday. I could re rehearse that whole and another one too, man. I mean, is it's backdraft. Like you Know that came out in like ninety one, ninety-two. I started in ninety. Yeah, I don't know what it is about that. I mean, it's the you know, the characters, the firehouse, and it reminds me back when I was a young firefighter. Yeah. No, yeah, I've watched I've watched that a million times. So either one of those, you know, I just actually was watching Friday like last weekend. So for the hundredth time. So

Corley: I feel it. I feel it. Number four, on the clock. This one we had to put a clock on because if we don't, people tend to go on and on and on explaining it. So the rules are answer it within the minute. Not afterwards, don't tell us the explanations afterwards. Within the minute, you get one minute to put your four people that are your Mount Rushmore of the fire service. And go Chief Shannon Stone: Man, that's a tough question. There are so many. I I'd probably have to say, you know, Alan Brunicini, just because he changed so much. of the American fire service that we we know today. Bill Guston, you know, rest in peace, my brother, you know, but that guy had such an impact on the fire service and me absolutely, you know, over the years. Andy Fredericks, you know, I never knew him. I never met him. I had an opportunity to teach, you know, in his classes at FDIC. Which just opened my eyes, and I say the last 20 years he's had such an impact on the American fire service, even after he passed, you know, and then One another guy that comes to mind that you know I've become friends with over the years. I haven't seen him probably in a couple years, but Chief Mike Lombardo. There's things that we do today in the panhandle that come directly from him. But man, there's so many of them. God, like so many new school dudes that, you know, that I could think could fit that mold. So, you know

Corley: Bruno, Gustin, Fredericks Lombardo, brother, that is, I mean, if you want to if you want a solid, arguable, stand the test of time, but rushmore, you got max points on that one, without a doubt. Final question. This is the question that will never change. Heavy fire. Searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on a VES? Chief Shannon Stone: The nozzle. I'm an engine guy, man. I've done them both and I've just I've I've always been loved, you know, I've always enjoyed I just love I just always enjoyed letting you know engine work. I love it and be on the nozzle. So give me the knob. Oddly enough, my son, my youngest asked me that the other day for some reason. Corley: Oh really? Yeah, I don't know where it came from. I'm like maybe he has good taste in podcasts. Yeah, yeah, maybe so. Possible. No, I no 100% the five questions for firefighters according to chief Shannon Stone, which officially puts 346 scraps in the books. I can't still care. Yeah, that's crazy. Chief, if someone wants to get a hold of you, what is the best way to do so probably just Facebook, quite honestly.

Chief Shannon Stone: You know, that through 850 Fireman, it's a Facebook page that my brother and I run that we don't do a whole lot with other than just share stuff but either that or you know, my emails, my name, Shannon. stone at midwayfire. com. Corley: I want to be very clear. Like we had A list of topics to talk about. And we got to one of them, sir. So I will not wait four years. I'm not waiting four years to bring you back. We're going to have to do this again and do it again soon just to get to the other stuff. Because hey, that this is what we didn't get to. Performance measures, defining great performance by seconds. And how they have a series of semi-annual fire ground tasks that all personnel must complete. So that's a whole nother it's not this ain't theoretical. This is like an actual system put in place that they use. And then operational talking about the two and a quarter and how much it it's not a very common nationwide's hose line, but a game changer for you. And and and talking about that. So that's that's what we didn't even get to. So we're we're definitely gonna have to do this again because we didn't even get to all the questions. We did not even pick up questions. Not just your topic. So again, we'll make it happen. Okay, housekeeping for me. Go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. The discord is up and running. And if you're not in the discord, why not? Like that it is a gatekeeper because it you have to jump through some hoops to get on the d get Discord and if you're not dedicated enough to jump through those hoops then you don't make it. But if you do, man, you are connected to one of the best networks. And it's like all the plus sides of networking without all the downsides of social media. So it's an amazing place to hang out with like-minded souls. So go become a part of it. And one of the cool parts is you get to go to the after party, which is coming up. After the show, where we get to go and roast Chief Shannon Stone and tell him how terrible of a job he did on the scrap. And he's looking forward to that and said, bring it on So all that being said, coming up next week on the scrap, it is Mr.

Corley: Muddy River here to talk fire, photos, and fools. Dave Dabowski coming on the chat. Two weeks from today, it's time to talk some leadership and motivation with the one and only Chris Bloom. So you know it's gonna be fun. All right. Enough jabbering for me. I love it. Let's get to the after party. Thank you once again, Chief Shannon Stone. I really enjoyed the conversation. I know that the audience did just from the the the in-depth questions that they asked on the the one topic we kind of got to cover. So that was amazing. Thank you. Chief Shannon Stone: Yeah man thank you Corley I sincerely appreciate you thinking about me and having me on man Corley: I appreciate it, brother. Brother, I I can't believe we took so long to do it, and I can't wait to do it again already. Audience, you make the scrap magical each and every week. You showed up with the with the soft tosses, you showed up with the heavy curveballs, you asked the best questions. write down the pipe for the guest and I appreciate you doing it and tuning in live each and every week. I love you all. The scrap doesn't happen without you, so thank you for being here. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there