Weekly Scrap #328 - Andrew Johnston, The Work of Search

Speaker 1: We've got the fire inside the fire inside the fire inside the fire. The fire inside the fire inside. One dry we go Like-minded souls, ready to roll one hundred percent Corley: I get asked all the time, what is a vigilante? What does it mean to be a vigilante? And so to explain that, I'm just gonna kind of explain where the vigilantes came from. When I started the group, I honestly thought there was gonna be like 10 or 20 people who really liked the scrap that would want to be part of the behind the scenes helping pick out the guests and make the questions and things and I never dreamed that the vigilantes would grow into what it has grown into. Over 700 like-minded souls. If you're a vigilante, you are never alone. We have members from across the country. We have members from across the globe. And it's just amazing what it's become. If you're in there, then you get to be in the Discord, and the Discord is where we do all of our dis Discussions and people go live and they talk and they ask questions and we have a channel for bitching and moaning for presenting classes. It's just it's amazing the fellowship that is involved in being a vigilante. And it's not just that, there's so many other benefits. You get access to the Vigilante only swag shop. You get the 15% discount on all merch from Firehouse Vigilance. You get the after parties. You get the Vigilante get togethers when we're all at the same place and we get together and we raise a glass and do a toast and have the vigilante creed. You get the vigilante coin when you hit your one year anniversary with your number. The fireaways, the forums. the archives, all those corely projects that are coming that you get to be a part of and get to be behind the scenes on, it's grown into something bigger than I ever imagined And I want people to know about, I want people to be a part of. If you're not a vigilante, why not? I don't know. I don't know how how big it could be. I don't know. I mean the vigilantes are are where the work is at. They're the ones who are getting stuff done and it's phenomenal to be a part of it.

Corley: I wanted to get on here and explain where it started, how it how it came to be, and ask you if you're not a vigilante, why not? Go to Patreon. dot com slash the vigilantes. That's where you sign up. It is $5 a month. I mean it's you can't even get a cup of coffee for that anymore. Five bucks a month and you get to be a part of this unbelievable group Go to patreon. com, sign up, become a vigilante, and I will see you on the Discord. Speaker 1: With tons drop, we go Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance, Weekly Scrap number 328. My guest tonight is Andrew Johnston. He is a captain with Pittsburgh Fire Department in Kansas. He is a husband and father. Into the fire service as a volunteer in 2004. He became a career firefighter in 2009 and currently is still serving in the Army Reserve. Over the last five years, he has been lucky enough to be a driving force behind the LCC Fire School, which is a longstanding fire conference in Parsons, Kansas. From teaching within the department to attending various conferences around the country, quality training is his passion. Lastly, Due to being involved with the vigilantes, he was lucky enough to play a part in the book of search. And ultimately, man, the driving force. I don't want to, I'm not going to let him downplay it. Ultimately, he is the driving force behind the work of search. Welcome, my brother, Andrew Johnston, for the scrap, episode number 328.

Andrew Johnston: Excited to be here. I appreciate the chance. Just. Sit here and talk about the book and wherever else you want to take it. I love it. Corley: I absolutely love it. Is there anything I left out, anything you would like to add to the intro? Andrew Johnston: It was I might have had a part in it, but there was a whole lot of people that touched that book. So it was a team effort to make sure we got it to this point that we're going to talk about tonight. Awesome. Corley: So I'm yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So special announcement. There is this is this is a vigilante A on the scrap. There's a whole lot of vigilantes watching and Well, long story short, this is where Sam has no idea what's going on, so I'll quit keeping him in suspense. But I'm gonna take Andrew off and bring Sam on. So Sam, you gotta come on the scrap. Surprise. Like I said, Sam doesn't know this, so I have to unmute myself. You can do it. I know you can. We checked. Yeah, I know, but I also gotta unmute myself. Oh, he's working on it. I am on the scrap. Sam is on the scrap. Now, Sam, you have a box that was just delivered to your house within the last few minutes. It was very hard to keep this a secret, but it was delivered. I had to tell him to quit opening it because he didn't know he wasn't supposed to not open it. He's opening it live. I was getting conflicting instructions Well, that's because we're good at at planning things. And Andrew, I don't know. They can still hear Andrew, correct? I believe so, yes. Okay, I'm not muted. No, you're not muted. So this Sam like I said, this was not I would I will take no credit for this other than the vigilantes are an amazing group of people. And they did this on their own. It was driven by well you can talk to them all. There's a whole lot coming with this, but

Andrew Johnston: You're gonna get access to a whole different channel on Discord that you had no clue was even created. And Hump was the driving force or the initiator of it, but there was several hands that participated in making sure that you realized how big of a part of the weekly scrap that you are and keeping it moving, making it happen week to week, as well as all the other adventures that are firehouse vigilance and the vigilantes in the Discord Corley: I don't know if y'all can see that. Andrew Johnston: And I'm sure you know that that comes from part of the weekly check-ins and some of the conversation I'm sure that were had there. Corley: Please forgive me if my voice cracks here. Sam, one of us supporting the never-ending fight against complacency So dude, that's that's all the vigilantes. That's that's them doing that, putting that together, making that happen for you. And pretty special and we wanted to make sure it happened with Andrew's scrap tonight Andrew Johnston: Thank you'll see a lot of kind words sent your way once I think McGinn will be the one to give you access because I'm not smart enough on the Discord. But there's a lot of people that appreciate what you do week to week to keep it all going. So thank you.

Corley: Thank you very much. I don't I don't I don't know what to say. Thank you Yeah, it's pretty kick-ass, man. Dude, you're awesome. Thank you, Sam. All right, that was pretty cool. I'm not gonna lie. All right, thank you. My eyes are not sweating So can tell you the vigilantes are the coolest people on the planet, plain and simple. No, no doubt about it. And Andrew, you're awesome for sharing your scrap with Sam and letting us do that during your episode. So again, some way to keep it interesting so I don't let everybody down. That ain't happening. All right, we're doing the sponsors. We're getting back to the normal swing of things. Here we go. Affordable drill towers on a mission to bring you cost-effective and versatile training props like the affordable bailout prop, which allows you to practice window bailouts, ladder bailouts, and ladder high point rescues. They also offer the affordable standpipe prop, which you can roll into the classroom for standpipe theory and then roll it into the parking lot and pump realistic flows and pressures. And of course, their mainstay, the affordable drill tower. It comes in several configurations and standard with the standpipe system. Choose from one, two sets of stairs, integrate it into your existing connex boxes for multi-story access. Or free standing on a slab. All models NFBA 1402 compliant and gain you ISO credit. The only thing that you can't do on an affordable drill tower is live fire training. Call Steve 844-55TOR or drop an email to info at affordable drilltowers. com. When it comes to building your perfect attack package. You can't just slap any nozzle on any hose and hope for the best. That's a recipe for failure. At Snap Tight Hose, they are not just trying to sell you hose. They are there to make sure you get the right hose paired with the right nozzle for your crew and conditions. Their team of experienced reps knows the stuff inside and out, and they're ready to help. No ego, no judgment, because knowledge is power. And at Snap Tight, they bring both. Visit snaptighthose. com to connect with a rep and start building your ideal hose and nozzle package today. Firestationfurniture. com. They provide a complete line of quality furniture for your firehouse. Firefighter owned and operated. They understand the strain firefighters put on furniture and offer furniture that's built to last.

Corley: Visit FirestationFurniture. com for more information. And with that being said, we are ready to scrap. We are ready to talk about the work of search. We got Sam a helmet. We let him know that he is one of us. We've got Andrew McGinn. Brother, let's talk of the. . Andrew Johnston: He screwed it up again. Corley: Again. Dude, that's my fault. There is no excuse for that. Andrew Johnston, once again, the driving force. Talk to me. How work a search, book a search, your driving parts go. Andrew Johnston: So obviously it started when I think at the time it was on Patreon, you just put it out, the book of search was coming down to the wire for your deadline and you were asking for help to get the drill piece which you wanted in there. just knew you It was coming down to running out of time and you were asking for help to kind of get it across the finish line. So while I was on vacation, I sent you a response and said I was interested because I didn't know what all it was gonna be. And I think it was a couple hours later you gave me a call and we kind of talked about it and said, sure, I'll I'll help you. I'll see what I can do. And just being the way the vigilantes are, we talked about putting it out in there and getting some help. We built a little team and I think it was six or seven of us. If I try to rattle them off, I'll live lose or forget somebody. But We created what you ended up titling the drill team and we got to work. I think what we have 90 days? I think it was, yeah. It wasn't very much. It was insane. And so we got to hammering out kind of a plan, what you wanted based off of just some general guidelines you gave us. And we had with Sam's help again. This is part of why he's got the helmet and all the support from so many people is I don't know how many little Zoom meetings we set up, middle of the day, random days, things like that. And Joe Massey and Clay McGee or two that I know I need to give a shout out to for sure. Joe had the What do you call it?

Andrew Johnston: The 365 access and outlook so that we could use all that. He built the shared drive for us and he had a template that we used. And so all the drills that you're going to see in that book are built off of a template he developed And then Clay with plenty of years of training and his outside training expertise, we were able to scrub our drills, make sure that we had a good foundation to build it off of. So I might have set a lot of things up, had a lot of conversations and kind of scrubbed things over just to kind of put a final eye on it. But Obviously everybody contributed and even there's some that proofread them for us. We reached out to, you know, Chris Scott, another vigilante, Zach Golombowski and his crew out in Garden City. So, you know, there was a ton of people that had their hands on this, but that was kind of how it started. And then of course we got down to the wire getting close and you were trying to wrap it up and still keep it affordable. And you said, we gotta cut it. There's no way we gotta cut it.

Corley: Yeah. And it's in the PDF. It made it to the PDF. Right. But and that and it and the drills would not exist without Andrew and the drill team. I don't want to short I don't want to short anybody, but he was the lead. And I'll be clear, like I knew what you have done with LCC and you were the and I'm not I know you don't take credit for things and all that kind of stuff, but it's the truth. You're a driving force that makes stuff happen. And I recognized that and I was like, I want to harness that. And you absolutely delivered. And I again, I'm not taking away from the rest of the drill team, but you guys crushed it. And that's the reason it exists in the book of search, the PDF version Sure. Andrew Johnston: I know I and I appreciate it. It was an awesome opportunity and I'm thankful that I got that chance because it opened several more doors and we'll talk about that with the work of search and a heck of a rabbit hole you opened up for me and I took off down. So we'll touch on that I'm sure here in just a little bit. But but yeah that's kind of how it came to be. And then shortly after that was when the conversation started on What do we do with it now that we gotta cut it from the hard text?

Corley: So And and just so everybody the people that don't know the story, I'll tell it real quick, which is we tried to keep the book of search affordable. Because it was going to be another 110 pages of drills basically inside of it. And so we just had discussions. Me, Andrew, Nick Ladine, a bunch of people that were kind of the the sounding boards for what can we do to to do this. And basically what we decided was look, the Book of Search is almost a collectible, the hardback that you get on Amazon. It's not something you want to take to the drill ground and get sprayed with water or drop or or throw in your gear bag. In theory, you want to get signatures in it and have it and study it and it's a it's something you take care of. But we wanted to make something that you could You know, roll up, put in your boot, take it down to the drill ground. If it gets wet, it's no big deal. You can order another one because it's affordable. And that's what we wanted to do with the the work of search. And and and I gotta be 100% credit where credit is due. The man, Brian Crush, he's the one who coined the term. Hey, cooly, you know what you need to call it. I'm like, what? He goes, work of search. There you go. Boom. Job's done. That was that's all crush. So I want to give credit. The work of search name came from The man himself, BB, Brian Crush. So 100%. I think that catches everybody up to why we decided to do a separate one. This one's going to be a paperback. It's not going to be full color. It's designed to be affordable. Our price point, we're trying to keep it 20 bucks or less. You can order it on Amazon. Like I said, roll it up, put it in your gear bag, beat it up, handle it, smash it on your copy machine so you can copy stuff out of it. That's the goal. And 100% free as a PDF, again, just like the book of search. So go ahead. That was the next step.

Andrew Johnston: Do you want to talk about Kind of what you anticipated doing where what it did for the firefighter rescue survey, you want to touch on that? Corley: Oh sure. No, no, a hundred percent because we we Love the firefighter rescues. There's there's there's so many, and this is I talked to Andrew, me and Andrew had this conversation. I'm like, there's so many great causes to give money to Because again, book of search, there has been no profit made on it. It's all gone to Firefighter Rescue Survey. 100%. And I'm so proud of that And this we wanted to be the exact same. But we were like, do we want to just give more to firefighter rescue survey or is there something else? And there's one other thing that's been started that is very similar in mission and it's it's creating data for us to. I I don't know. There's tons of good causes, but there's only two that I know of that are about the mission set-driven data sets. And that's Firefighter Rescue Survey and of course Firefighter Mayday Survey. So everything from the work of search. All the sales of the book for 2025-2026 are going to go to the firefighter Mayday survey. And that's the plan moving forward. And then from there we can see if there's anything else that pops up and pivot. And that's the that's the that's the plan So yeah, great point. Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew Johnston: Hopefully they everybody goes out when that comes available. Hopefully December 1st, I assume, if we're still on target. I know we're a little behind where we were shooting for, but hopefully if all goes well, it'll still be in time for Christmas. Everybody looking for crew gifts, that might be an option as we're heading into the holiday season. Corley: No, and that's really the only time crunch we really put on ourselves was let's get this available for Christmas. And other than that, we could take forever and and we could because we could sit here and and And take forever. keep adding to it and keep adding to it. But we the the Christmas deadline really does help us because it's gonna make a great crew gift. It's gonna make a great yeah, it's gonna be awesome for the fire service. I really believe I think the work of search It may not get bought as I don't know how to say this right. It may not be as popular with everybody as the book of search, but I think the people that get it are the doers that want to go out and do the work and it's gonna have a bigger impact on the fire service.

Andrew Johnston: I really do. Absolutely. I hope it resonates with a lot of those that want to get out and do the drills. I hope it helps with young company officers that need a little bit of direction. just kind of an outline, a guideline, something to make it an easy button to where you don't have to think about it. You don't know you don't have to come up with all the stuff that you got to get. A lot of these drills are a pre-packaged. If you've seen the book of search on the digital copy, you've already seen them. We cleaned a few things up. We refined it a little bit. But we also added in the work of search what you'll see at the end of it is a link that's going to take you to a drive where you can get props, prop plans, other little what do we we call them enhancements, training enhancements. things like using a wetsuit and putting Vaseline on it to simulate a victim that's sloughing off or the little fire light bulbs. And putting that in a small box like with a bathroom light fixture to where you can simulate the fire. So there'll be a lot of options there. And but when you said something about growing, that's what reminded me to mention that that's going to be a living document. So the book will never grow in print necessarily, but the access via QR code that you're going to see in the back of that book is going to open up something that'll grow and everybody listening tonight, everybody that listens to it on the podcast. I hope in time that you take a second to scan that. If you've got prop ideas that aren't in there, Adam, you're going to submit a link or submit it to that link. And a handful of us that are on the vigil anything side of things, we're going to scrub that, make sure it's not duplicated, or if it's better than what's already in the file. Got to more, yeah, we'll replace it. And so it'll be a resource that'll outlive the book to an extent, if you will.

Corley: And grow. Yeah. And it's a living it's the living library of props and enhancements. And hopefully the fire service. Just keeps on pumping new and innovative stuff into it. You know, and I that that's gonna be powerful. It is gonna be powerful. Andrew Johnston: Heck yeah. Corley: No, and you and I again I wish I wish they could just have a do a mega scrap in fact I might even do that at some point and do a mega scrap with everybody that worked on the drill teams just to just to acknowledge everybody. Joe Massey. Again, another just put so much effort into it. Clay McGee, you mentioned Clay McGee. I think those are two of the biggest heavy lifters. And again, I'm short-changing people I know, but those two did a lot of the heavy lifting And if you're in the vigilante, as you know I went live in Discord and you saw some of the work. Just the other day, I just went through and clicked every link. to make sure it still went to the right thing. And it's it's boring work. It's not glamorous. But there was people out there who found every link and turned it into a Q car code and made this book so that it could be easily accessible for the fire service. And so I'm I man, I'm telling you, hopefully it'll be out. It depends on the submission process, but hopefully in the next early December. Early December, it's going to be a good thing. If I don't give it back, we'll be hopefully we'll be right on target And I will be throwing out hype videos based around it. Sam's making hype music just for the release of the hype video. So speaking of hype music, did it start, Sam?

Andrew Johnston: Was that what you had on the intro We haven't even talked about the Heck yeah. Corley: All right, let's let's get some I got some questions coming at you about the Book of Search, so I want to hit on those coming at you from the vigilante or coming at you from the scrappers. Andrew Johnston: Before you do that. Do you want to mention that all those articles with the fire engineering thing? Because I saw that post finally come out with the first one released. Corley: Great, great point. Fire engineering is posting the articles from the original book of search, the book of search Yeah, I'm making saying the Book of Search. They're posting all the R all the again, the Book of Search doesn't own any of the articles. Firehouse Vigilance doesn't own the Book of Search. It is 100% free to the fire service, but Fire Engineering is posting the articles and then they're posting a link to where to get the entire book. the PDF and where to buy it on Amazon. So they're spreading the message to their entire audience. And that's a powerful, powerful thing. And it's just the fire service is winning. The fire service is winning.

Andrew Johnston: I think that's a tribute to David Rhodes, you know, taking the lead and he's talked about, you know, supporting smaller conferences, even though he's in charge of FDIC, to have somebody that that looks at it and says Every one of those small conferences out there is important and they're all supporting the mission. And those that those two shouldn't be in competition, but look at it more the perspective is that they support each other. And to do the same thing with this book, Because you could argue that it wasn't published through fire engineering or anything like that, but he's taking it and embracing it for what it's worth and ensuring that it meets or reaches as many people out there as possible to ensure that you know we do improve our performance for the mission. Corley: No, and I can't say enough about his leadership of of as the as the editor in chief. And because he could have he wrote the he wrote the introduction for the the book of search. And that's that's a that takes a huge set, man, to be the editor in chief of fire engineering and write an introduction for a independently published thing, man. I'm telling you that that that needs to be acknowledged. That that is yeah so absolutely no a hundred percent man The fire service is winning and making making huge strides. And it's because of the doers that are doing work, including Andrew, Joe, Dennis, Clay. I can't again I should pull it up and have it in here, but I'm on the road. Okay, the other thing I wanted to say, which is something else I wanted to mention, because I want to give a shout out. First time this has ever happened. I've done scraps on the road, but usually they're from a hotel room. But the hotel was The Wi-Fi was so bad it would kick me off every few minutes. So Burton, South Carolina, Firehouse 84 is where I am currently at. I'm in their training center. right now. They are the gracious hosts allowing me to host a scrap from their firehouse. And so I want to give a shout out to them. Firehouse 84. 100% appreciate you letting us do this. So questions coming at you. If let's do it.

Andrew Johnston: Anything else you can think of, Andrew, before No, I just didn't want to let that get slip through the crack. So let's get after it. Corley: Culture over comfort says, what was the driving factor for you to start working on the work of search? So we covered it kind of. Andrew Johnston: Yeah, we kind of touched on it. obviously it just It wasn't going to make it in the book of search because it was going to make it an $80 plus dollar book. And so it was just kind of a pivot. All right. So how do we how do we not lose all the work, but also the benefit of what we tried to create And so we kind of shifted, and that's where you came up with it. And at some point in there, you sounded boarded Chief Brush and came back with let's call it the work of search. And ultimately that's then when we started having a few more conversations. I went back to the drill team and kind of said, all right, here's we thought we were we were gonna hit our target. We hit our target, but now we had to kill our baby. So basically what we did was say, okay, we got to refocus and we set a new target and we decided because of the time crunch, we already there were some things we had to cut out. We didn't get to do the props. We didn't get to do all the drills. There was some of the resources that you're going to see in there once you get that book that we tried to make available to help. further develop training and drilling and things like that. And then one of the biggest things you and I talked about was when it's a standalone thing just with the drills. knowing where the the fire service is as a whole and kind of what seems like a misinterpretation of the difference between training and drilling, And especially when you look at like Aaron Field's article, drilling for function, stuff like that, the and what his nozzle forward program did to revolutionize kind of the hands-on training and the quality of it. We went down that rabbit hole and and we tried to pursue some options there to get an article to support that. And we kind of came up empty-handed.

Andrew Johnston: And so that's when I told you, hey, I, you know, I'm not a subject matter expert, but I could put something together. It is something I care about. And I said if you If you'd give me that opportunity, I would love to do it and see where it goes. And that's ultimately how we came to what the work of search is that you'll see Corley: the only thing I think an evolution because I want to say this. I gotta I gotta tell people this. Andrew put together, and it's probably a I want to say it was about 30 pages. Is that about right? Andrew Johnston: 29 to 35 pages, something like that total. Corley: on training versus drilling. And it's deep, man. It's cited. It is, it is, it is, it needs to be published and probably will be published in some way, shape, or form. I don't know if it's going to be, but we're going to discuss that. But it will be published because there's too much work gone into it. But then I went to Andrew and said, hey, thanks for thanks for writing this beautiful, beautiful thing. Now I need you to cut it down to 10 pages or less and make it as simple as possible so that Firefighters who like to eat crayons can read it and absorb it.

Andrew Johnston: Whether it's an email or whatever, I I can talk all day. My emails are rather lengthy. I I think Fields told you a while back he's not interested in a short conversation. If I'm going to dive into it, I'm going to dive into it deep. So absolutely. But I did tell you when you when you came back to me with it. I told you that the rabbit hole was awesome because it it took something I was always interested in training. And I've always been accused of being you know, wanting to train all day or, you know, whatever. That was An accusation that was always thrown my way. You want to train too much? Why are you you know, why do you care so much? Why are you so particular? Whatever. And so I loved going down this rabbit hole and digging into all these books. I'll mention that at the end when we go over some books. But you came back to me and said we gotta kill your baby. We gotta cut it down. And I'm sorry. I feel so bad. That you didn't want to, you know, you weren't sure about even doing it, but I'm that was a tough it was a tough call to make of shipping it like it is or simplify.

Corley: And I'm I mean, and if anybody knows me, they know that my goal on almost everything is KISS And so anyway, it's a driving force. But go ahead. And what it was was it, like you said, it's good. Andrew Johnston: There's a lot of stuff there. And it's starting with more of the foundational information. We got to be able to you know, provide motivation. We have to have a desire or the the reason. What are we training for? What's our priorities? Laying the foundation, assessing your people where they're at, and then building the whole process start to finish. And With it being titled The Work of Search and Just The Drills, it gave me a chance to actually narrow it down and force me to focus on really what's the point. And to be more succinct with it. Corley: So you did a great job. You did a great job. Seriously. Pivoral said I want to read that entire paper. And that's that's a great point. I everybody should read the entire paper that that wants to get nerdy with it because it's worth it. And so it's we're going to make sure it happens. We are. I don't know what that looks like. I don't know if we're going to submit it to fire engineering and get it to come out as like a 10 part series. I don't know if we're gonna publish it as a separate thing that's like the I don't know. I'm trying to think of something off the top of my hand. Andrew's wordy version of this But no, but no, it it needs to happen.

Andrew Johnston: 100%. I I think so after a couple month break between my mind my wife's patience. We'll take a couple months and then we'll re-engage with it for sure. Corley: And Andrew has allowed me to A, beat him up and abuse his competence because he is absolutely suffering from the curse of competence. He's good at what he does and allows me to abuse it and I appreciate that. He allows me to call him again on repeat without getting too offended. I don't know how McGinn feels about that, but he allows me to do it. Jeremy Hump Hump wants to know, is this the first scrap held in a firehouse? Sam, I think, I think it is. I can't think of any So this is the first crap ever held in a firehouse by me. I think other people have been the guest has been in a firehouse before. So yeah. Culture. Yeah, we got that one. Speaking of hump. He says, for readers who pick up this book, what is the one takeaway you hope will influence or inspire meaningful change in their department's search culture? What is the one thing you want them to take away, Andrew? In their search culture. In their search culture.

Andrew Johnston: Okay. I think because the work of search obviously is going to support a different cause, but because it it's rooted in the book of search and it's based on the firefighter rescue survey. I hope that the the reader would take away in the drills and the the article that leads into it on how to drill properly. That we can get our searches within the time, you know, regardless of your department size, prioritize it and be able to search within the guidelines to give the victims the highest outcome. Corley: Yes. That is a great summation And one thing we were very clear on from the beginning, and so when people get this, and the and and a lot of you have seen the PDF because you guys are all the vigilantes are right now. going over and trying to find grammatical errors and they're editing and we're gonna have a meeting on Thursday to go over and make sure we we get it as clean as possible. But this is there this is not like the Book of Search. There's only one article in here. It's Mc Johnson. Dude, it is locked into my brain. it is Andrew Johnston's article. And there's that's the only one because I because there were other people that wanted to even follow up on their articles from the book of search, and they wanted to follow up and put more information in. And we had to stay mission focused, say that's not the point of this. This point is the drills. This point is the drills.

Andrew Johnston: If Mike's listening, Bernard, I I have not got him called yet, but I got to call and talk to him some more about it and and how all this is shaken out. and everything like that. But but yes, I know there was there was definitely more people probably more qualified to put this information in there than I am. And I I even reached out to one of those, which would be Rob Ramirez, and I did ask him to please critique this on a professional level and for content and make sure that it was as accurate as possible. And you know, then It fell short with a couple others that we tried to reach out to, but I do hope it resonates. I hope it hits home and I hope it ultimately affects our ability to be effective across the board, regardless of your department size. in how you drill and understanding that first, the difference between training and drilling. Corley: Love it. I like it. I'm looking to see if there's anything else covering. Oh wow, there's questions. Okay, here we go. Hump again says, as you were working on the book of search or work, yeah, was there anything that stood out to you that made it distinct from other publications on the topic? I don't know if there is anything else like this. You know what I'm saying? I other than other than passion projects by individuals. I don't know if there's anything else like this. That's just drills on drills on drills.

Andrew Johnston: So I got one sitting here. That would be the closest thing to it. And I don't know if you can see that. The volunteer training drills. Corley: Volunteer training drills. Andrew Johnston: And that's by fire engineering. but other than that, I don't know of any that have taken this approach with a soul focused on drills. There's searching smarter. I know that's out there. I do have a copy of it behind me here. It's a good book. I think I can't remember. It's a little bit older. But no, I don't think there's anything else that is just like this. what I do hope is having those. Ready to use drills. Obviously, you can't, with the fire service being as diverse as it as it is from you know FDNY down to my volunteer department, we run, you know, 30, 40 calls a year and you know, there's not any real businesses to speak of. Speaker 1: So we're all coming from 15, 20 miles out, other than if you guys are farm. Andrew Johnston: Yeah. So you can't build a cookie cutter drill for everybody, but what we did was try to provide that foundation that they can tap into tools, some safety considerations, just a general guideline that still works with three guys on an apparatus showing up. to a fire. Right. You've got to be smart enough to take that then and modify it for your organization, your your timeline before you meet your staffing.

Corley: 100%. Andrew Johnston: Right. And then we just the the first little bit that leads into it with the the article I put together is like you said a chunk of what I came up with, but that was a summation of about a dozen books, you know, nine to twelve books tugging at pieces of it. So no, I don't think there's anything like it. And I do hope that down the road here we can put something together with that total package, maybe extrapolate that out a little bit like you and I've talked and we might be able to add to it just enough to make it valuable for that training officer. of a a smaller, you know, a small to mid-size organization, or even just a new company officer, how do I get by in? How do I get the motivation to train? And all the factors that work into that. How do we make somebody capable of doing this and do it the right way so that we don't screw them up and create huge training scars? No doubt about it. Corley: No doubt about it. one more from Hump coming at you. It's if you could go back in time and advise young Andrew Johnston of one thing, what would it be?

Andrew Johnston: Oh goodness. I did think about this. I I wondered if it would come up, but one of the big things that I it's not necessarily a regret, but I I wish I could do it over to an extent would be I promoted very early. So I made captain in six years. and I was fairly young. So the crew that I was with at the time, I think I was The youngest for a while and I was the second youngest for the remainder of that time that I was serving in that that shift makeup and I wasn't the best. Like I loved training at that point. That's when I was so you've talked about it. Mark Von Oppen when he came down to Edmund, I think it was. Yes. that was a big spark for a change in my career and the kind of the ownership aspect of it. Stop blaming others for why you suck or why you can't do anything. And then a trip to Wichita Hot with the NEMS But I've always been into training. It was just more that unconscious incompetence that I didn't know what I didn't know. We thought we were good, had good performance evals, you know, at the end of the year, things like that. I did not, I made more enemies by trying to bring things home and say, this is what we need to do. This is why we need to do it. We suck. the way we've always done it's stupid. You know, all the things that you've heard on the scrap a half dozen times. If I could go back and do it over, and moreover, I there was one instance for sure that Publicly in front of our whole shift be rated somebody that yes, we just went through a training on ropes, knots, couldn't build a basic system But I I came off the top rope and gave him the old elbow drop right in front of everybody. And so not having the maturity and the wisdom at in a leadership role I did more damage and it took years to recover from sure a lot of that and not fully understanding you know and learning now like I didn't know what the learning pyramid was then But knowing that like I went out to all this training, you come back, you're passionate, you're motivated, and you think in your mind you remember it all.

Andrew Johnston: But you know what you did just at best going off the pyramid you remember 75% right from doing it. at best. Yeah at best you know while you're out there sweating and just you know doing what having drinks that evening, whatever else is entailed in going to a conference. And so then you're tripping all over yourself trying to explain it. Because you didn't do it the right way, didn't come home, research it, fully understand what they were telling you. Corley: And then And you were exposed to it. You were exposed to it, you got a good absorption of it, but you don't have sets and reps to it ingrain it. You don't know the granule You may understand the why a little bit, but you it's not, yeah. And that's the point of your article. Andrew Johnston: Yes. Corley: And and and honestly, I got a great question coming at you from Kyler Cox because it's right in Kyler Coach or Cock. I'm gonna say I'm I'm not sure. Andrew Johnston: Let's go with the latter just for fun. Corley: Okay, Kyler Cockett is. He says, I'm on a volunteer fire department. What is the best way to start doing search drills? And I love this question because it's right in the alley of your article. And it says, should we walk through it first without being blacked out or drive dive straight into blackout? So go ahead and I'll let you field it.

Andrew Johnston: Oh awesome. No, that's a good question. And I think that plays into one of the things I sent you was the crawl walk-run concept being misunderstood. That's where this whole article started, the difference between training and drilling, but crawl, walk, run being extremely misunderstood. And I'm going to say especially in smaller, mid-size to smaller organizations, because we have to get a butt and a seat. So volunteer as well as just the same. We're bringing them on. We got to kind of teach them on the job. You get maybe one hour a week. You might get a couple hours on a weekend. You know, depending on the department and the volunteer makeup. I know it's different across the country. Right. how serious they are or how much time they commit to it. But the the ideal process is you've got to inch an increment to leave work your way into that drill going straight into blackout is an over stimulation and that's that's towards the end of the correct process You want to first explain what search is. They got to understand, you know, Simon Snake talks about start with why. That's an awesome book. And it's business. Focused, but I think we can make those correlations to the fire service. So they gotta understand why do we search. And then if you use the data from the firefighter rescue survey, here's the the real-world timeline we have to make a positive impact. And so then here's the realities. What are we searching? we have to search the soft stuff. We have to search, you know, four foot and below, because 90% of the time that's where the beds are. You know, you could call it five foot for a bunk bed. But we have to search the soft stuff, beds, couches, the floor. That's where we're going to find victims. So they have to understand that foundational information before they're ever in it and then get the skill set. Here's the tripod position. And so when you talk about breaking down a skill, search is a complex skill. So you need to start with one room, but we need to start with the body mechanics. We need to start with the positioning. What are we searching and why? You know, we're not searching the top of a dresser, we're not searching a table. That's not where we typically find them.

Andrew Johnston: Those are going to be your weird one-offs, right? so start with if you're in a volunteer station, Study or focus for a week or two, you know, just the firefighter rescue survey, the data that tells you where we're finding them and the timeline we have to get them out and make a positive impact. Back that up a little bit. So what's your your call processing time? What's the reality of you guys getting to your station during the day? What's the time frame you're going to get there at night? And then what's your response time? We have a 27 square mile response district. And our station is clear at the north end of it on my volunteer department that I started with. You know, we're three miles from the county line and we're going what eight seven or eight miles to the south and that's not even to the far corner of it. So you got to add that in. So then when you get there, how much time do you have to make an impact? What's the fire involvement? And then understanding what those conditions are that you may face. Now get yourself in the room. That's also taking a window is a part of it. You're going to see that in the the drills in the book. That's a skill in itself. So when you talk about search and whether to do it blacked out, like you're have you got on scene? Have you sized it up? Have you taken the window to even enter it or gone in through the front door and been able to orient yourself to the house? You know, so there's so many things that we got to do to even get to the process of search before we get blacked out. And so I would say you've had some guests talk about like even just gear. So physical fitness, right, is an aspect, but gear alone is a stressor. Because it affects our flexibility. It increases our heart rate because of the heat retention. So we have to understand all of that before we just take off running. And that's where I would encourage you to start with some of that foundational information. And if you're already there, cool. Make sure that everybody is extremely proficient at searching. Even if it's pallets in your bay and you throw a bed in it and a plywood dresser or, you know, just some whatever junk you can get to simulate a room and throw a bunch of goodwill clothes on the floor.

Andrew Johnston: Simulate a real bedroom Put some bedding and a pillow on it. Search one room and do it where you can do it with the lights on and you hit everything. And do that multiple times so that you're not missing anything. You're making sure you get on top of the bed. You're making sure you check the bedding, check under the bed, and you cover every square inch of that floor as quick as possible. Check the closet. So if you've hit those things and maybe considered popping the window to vent if water's on the fire, Now, then we can black you out. We can put you in gear, we can put you on air. Then the next step would be, and that's when we're really talking stress inoculation. So now I'm gonna use the smoke machine I'm going to give you some visibility, but your light may or may not work. It may be like brights in the fog. I'll put the speaker on. I'm going to have fire sounds. I may have chainsaw sounds, a smoke detector going off. But I'm going to ratchet this up over time I don't want to just dump you into that environment. and I don't care if it was done to you. That doesn't mean it was right. Right. And you touch on that in your article.

Corley: And that made it But no and and no there's great stuff. I like SC Fools, I like this question coming at you because it's right again in in line with your article. And I don't know this is like how deeper you want to go because Andrew's put a lot of time into this. But he says, what's the biggest difference between training and drilling? Speaker 1: Then melt that down to a sentence. Corley: There you go. Right. Andrew Johnston: I was going to say so That's tough, but I'll give it kind of a go here, you know, without getting deep into the weeds on it. So training, that is the information that's when you're initially giving them that information that's the foundation and that's your your initial exposure to any process that you're wanting to do any skill any tactic, strategy, whatever. We got to understand the why and the how. And that's the step-by-step process of how you show it to somebody. And then migrating them to where at least it's starting to make sense. And then when we get into drilling, that that's where it transitions into where you're doing it and practicing it a little at a little more less guided, you're not being shown, you're just doing it. And then there's some phases as you go through drilling where We would get into more of like you're adding the stress inoculation, but it's after we've perfected that skill, every single one of them, or the components, when we start to deconstruct a skill. You know, you talk about like flowing a hand line. So training, I've got to show you water mapping, I've got to show you the nozzle movements, and I've got to show you the footwork. I gotta show you how to move forward with that hose So those are are different components of that, right? So that's the whole training. I'm going to show you and explain it, demonstrate it, and give you a little bit of practical application. We can even back that up to where we we did it with a recent academy where we even took away the nozzle reaction, the weight of the hose, and everything else, and we broke down the footwork so much in deconstructing that skill to They were advancing with a pool noodle down the hallway and having to verbalize everything that they did. So how they were coating the walls, how they were coating the ceiling when they made the fire room, and their actions once they made that fire room.

Andrew Johnston: and the drilling is just the repetitions. That's where we build the muscle memory through those countless repetitions. And so obviously the book will take a deeper dive into that. But when we're getting into that muscle memory, we have to ensure that it's good practice. So in that, before we transition from training to drilling, We make we have to make sure that accuracy comes before speed a hundred percent because We know practice makes permanent, but poor practice can also become permanent. So we don't want to have bad reps become what we lock in. Right. And when we do that, Then as long as it's right, we start to pick up speed. And we get in some of the books and stuff, we'll talk about, or you'll you'll kind of read it in the work of search, but stress introduction versus stress inoculation is two different things as well. So the stopwatch alone, that's stress, right? Or I put you against your peer and it's ready, set, go. And if you know, physical fitness can be a punishment when, you know, you don't win. So, you know, those are ways we slowly introduce it, putting you in your gear, putting you on air. But that's really the true difference between training and drilling is one is the introduction to knowledge. And then the other is that execution to build that proficiency. And even we got to meet our new chief coming in today. And I know it's been said plenty of times before. We shouldn't practice till we get it right and quit. We want to practice until we can't get it wrong. And that's it's too ad nauseum. We want to make sure that, especially on our bread and butter operations, that that stuff we can do in our sleep The other thing that I think people forget with drilling is drilling is also to maintain a skill. So we're not just talking about recruits all the time or a new skill that comes up because you know, the fire service changes or our environment changes. Right. But what are you doing to make sure those skills are always kept sharp? Because not all of us go to fires every day. Not all of us go to pin jobs every day. that's just not the the real world, what you know, even if we want it to be.

Andrew Johnston: And they are perishable skills. 100%. And I'm sure we can touch on that depending on where things go, but the The fire service has gotten very broad over the last 20 to 30 years. So yes, in your bigger metro departments, they have engines, they have trucks, they have rescues, they have people that get to specialize to an extent. But what about the majority of the fire service that is rural and suburban? They don't get to. So maybe we'll touch on that here a little bit. Corley: No, and and and call volume matters. Call volume does matter. So maybe if you work in Jobtown, you can rely on your jobs. I don't think you should, but you can rely on your jobs to keep your skills proficient. But for the vast majority of the the American Fire Service, we cannot rely on the calls to keep us proficient. And if you think you can and you think you're going to be good the day of because you think you're good, you know, well, we know where that ends. Andrew Johnston: You're going to rise to the occasion, right? That's it. Step into the phone booth, spin around, come out with the old S on your chest. That doesn't happen. No, and that's a good point because that's I think that's mentioned in an article.

Corley: Might might be. Matthew coming at you. From the beach. Joe is coming at you. Andrew, is there a time we're doing a drill to evaluate your members' knowledge, skills, and abilities is appropriate, knowing that typically Training should happen before drilling. Andrew Johnston: So I think he and I had a conversation on this at one point. Read it to me one more time. I want to make sure it's still what we talked about a long time ago while we were putting all this together. Corley: Is there a time where doing a drill to evaluate your members' KSAs is appropriate? Knowing that typically training in quotations should happen before drilling. Yes. Andrew Johnston: So What I you can't expect somebody to meet a standard that you didn't set. So expectations, we talk about that as leaders. We have to set expectations. We can't have a magical target or a you know a hidden target, a moving target. That doesn't work. They have to know the standard and know the expectations, know the criteria they have to meet. I do think it's acceptable to test your guys, you know, to test your people. And Not all of that should have to be announced a hundred percent of the time. It doesn't have to be scheduled because that's the reality of our job. That's the world we work in. Sure. You know, the tones are dropping, we, you know, tones drop and we go. So being able to do that, I would just be calculated in your efforts when you drop something on your crew. Obviously we want to work together. We want to support each other. But we do need to start with explaining those standards, those expectations, and knowing that that is an option. I would set that as an expectation. Periodically we will drill with things at random. to ensure that we maintain our skill set. And I've heard somebody else talk about it before and I can't remember who. It seems like it's been a while on scrap, but you know anybody can initiate it and you might be able to recall but somebody talked about being able to initiate a drill You know, more or less as a challenge.

Corley: But I don't know if I I that doesn't ring any bells right now, but I I remember what you're talking about, but night yeah, they blur. They blur. Andrew Johnston: Right. So I do think it's okay to evaluate your people. And I I dang sure think we should have those quarterly or annual evaluations as firefighters. I think it's 100% acceptable to have JPRs, KSAs for our job and for every rank because the public expects that So we'll touch on the case. Corley: No, I'm a huge fan. I'm a huge fan of mystery drills. Mystery drills like hey, we're gonna throw the kitchen sink at you. But I want to be very clear when I say it is you have to have a healthy culture to be able to do that. Because a lot of people use Training as punishment. Speaker 1: They're like, okay, show up. Corley: I'm gonna make you look like an idiot. Here we go. Ready? Speaker 1: Go. Corley: You know, and they and and that was done to them, and they think it's okay, and they think it's a way to make you learn. Oh, you don't know what you're doing. Look how stupid you are. I'm the smart person here. And it's a punishment. And that that's the unacceptable. That's what needs to go away. But what you need is if you have a if you have high performers, high performers love to be challenged. Yes. They love to be challenged But the problem is most people don't have a full team of high performers. So you got people that don't love to be challenged, mixed in with people that love to be challenged. And what happens is typically your performance drops to the lowest common denominator. So your whole goal is to raise Rising tide raises all ships. Raise your minimum standard until everybody's a high performer. And I can that's a magical way to fix the problem. Right. But it is something to aim for 100%. no, I I think you're spot on with that as well. But the punishment thing, that drives me crazy. I I love a good mystery drill. Like show up, see how you can do, see how good your skills are. Let's find out. But you need your your people need to be bought into that and you buy them into that by teaching them that training isn't a bad thing.

Corley: Let's go, let's go get better together. Andrew Johnston: Let's figure out what we yeah. Take so what do we make? What's the biggest barriers to training? We've I think you and I've talked about this plenty, right? You know, it's always all these other things that we got to do, the day-to-day stuff, right? All the check boxes that we got to hit, cleaning, station chores, be it mowing, inspections, testing hose, you know, what whatever, the whole gamut that's out there. Right That all ends up because that's easier to check or required kick's training to the side. But I think it's awesome because Chief Ike talked about How many other opportunities do we have during the day? So my department, for instance, we go to a metric, you know what ton of fire alarms. But he talks about, you know, how many times do you get access to those buildings Make that a quick drill. Now, do we want to shut Main Street down for you know two hours? No. But you got called there. You have full access and right to be at that building. Maybe that's where we could make up some more of our drills, and that's got to be a cultural shift that's got to start at the top. but that it's expected periodically to stretch hose on a high-rise building, to make a hookup to the FDC, or while you're on that main drag, to put your stick in the air on a four or five, six-story building. Because how many times are you going to get to do it? And the drill ground, the drill ground gets worn out. There's only so much beyond foundational skills you can get off your drill ground because it's It's a known known. Like you know.

Corley: And it's hard to it's hard to pretend that you don't know where the door is, or it's hard to pretend that you don't know how tall the the I I hate pretend training, but sometimes it's all we got as a fire service. Andrew Johnston: So I I mean Chief Ike pushing the norm and saying, so let's take advantage of that. It doesn't have to be every day. It doesn't always have to be at 3 a. m. But maybe it should be after dark. Maybe it should be at two in the afternoon and you got to block traffic. Is that not a reality? So, you know, it's it's hard because we also want to kick everybody loose. We don't want to tie up three rigs on a false alarm. Corley: Which is something else me and you have talked about, which is the fact the fire service is I the only profession that tries to keep it skill sharp while they're still In ready state. I mean, I don't think the military does that. I don't think any sports team says, hey, let's go practice. Oh, it's kickoff time, you know. But that's what we are expected to do is as firefighters. Hey, let's go get this training in. Oh shit, fire drop. Let's go. Let's drop our training and go to the fire. Or the heart attack or insert whatever.

Andrew Johnston: And I think that's even worse. you know, I I think we both come from I know more is definitely a lot bigger than where I've worked, but it's that suburban and rural problem. That's even worse. You don't get to come out of service Speaker 1: Right. Andrew Johnston: On your bigger departments, I'm not saying it's ideal and I can't speak to that world, but at least they periodically get to go out of service rotate into the training ground or whatever. Corley: So that was never my world. So I don't think I don't think the vast majority of the fire service gets that luxury at all. No. So like you said, maybe the big urbans. Andrew Johnston: Let's be innovative and create it. You know, take a different route home from one station to the next or another call and get call it 15 minutes of driver's training. Yeah. How do we become better? Yeah. Corley: No, I love it. I like this. Massey coming at you once again. He says, how important is setting up drills for success to the learning process? Than for people who set up drills that are impossible to succeed. I love that question because it kind of touches on what we talked about about, you know, the basically like like Chief Chief Riley says, stump the chump. Right.

Andrew Johnston: So yes, that'll actually It's critical on where are they at in their stage of learning where you implement that. So Stump the chumps never good unless it's equal and across the board where everybody's kind of playing. You know, I it's okay to quiz each other on the compartments of the truck or whatever, but it's gotta be everybody participating. Not, you know, we're just gonna B rate the new guy. Right. that's not productive. But I also think At some point, our drills have to progress past the most simplistic thing because it makes us look good and feel good We have to practice and train for things that are what ifs or are potential. Probability may be low, but potential is there. So we'll go again any any small suburban department and it's becoming more popular with the economy is three stories and below wood frame residential structures with vinyl siding. I don't know how many people typically go to a three-story residential. Not very many. Out on the east coast, you got some brownstones maybe that are, and you got some row homes out on the west coast. That that's their bread and butter, though. That's their routine. So the rest of us go to one and two-story family homes all the time. That's easy. That's a pre-connect. That's kind of the general get down, right? But Our drills are going to have to start replicating across the board those what-if scenarios. And if we train for the worst, and I don't mean the the crazy you're guaranteed to fail scenarios, but they've got to be complicated, they've got to be challenging, or we will slowly erode our true skill set. We're going to go backwards instead of forwards. And if we start to embrace that challenge and that work, Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And that's a cliche statement. So but I'm saying that scale is going to have to continue to slide as you go forward with how complex you make your events. But make it realistic for your district. You know, we're getting ready to have a 13-story structure become occupied. And, you know, our tallest currently is seven.

Corley: Okay. Andrew Johnston: So, you know, that's double that, right? Right, right. Yes, we have a lot of dorms, we have a lot of apartments, but that's definitely going to be something that's not our strong suit. We're gonna have to train to that. Corley: Yeah, the rebound, the replex time, and everything. Yeah, just all of it. All of it. Andrew Johnston: I love Robert Mears. Oh, go ahead. Oh, you're good. I was going to say that, but that's something everybody's got to look at, you know, locally and not just what what do you have now? What's coming that you may or may not have much say in. I know of a local department that had an apartment fire that happens, you know, it's three stories and it didn't go as well as you would hope. And they fought it years ago and now they're going to rebuild it. And they fought it even with the poor outcomes. But it's It's outside their ability to address it. So, you know, are you gonna you can be mad about it, sure, and it's justified to be frustrated for a while, but you know, we're s you're still gonna have to prepare for that. That now is something you've experienced What are you going to do to be better prepared the next time it does happen? And that's not a knock on anybody's performance. They are a very short-staffed department and they were overwhelmed from the get-go But I think that's also where we they did a good job. I want to give them absolute credit and they came in and talked to us about it. But This is where I think we can make that statement is when we say we did the best we could, I want to be able to sleep at night knowing that I actually did the best we could. That is the truth. True, honest that we leading up to that. We put every ounce of preparation in to know whether it's not a sound right and it's not us trying to make ourselves feel better. It is the truth. We were behind the eight ball when it when the call came in. Well, no shit.

Corley: I mean That's that's where we live. That's the nature of our business. Andrew Johnston: We're operations. We start out behind the problem. Corley: Our job is to catch up to the problem, get ahead of the curve. That's our job. We should always start out behind the problem. Andrew Johnston: We probably underinvest in prevention. That probably saves more lives. I'll guarantee you that saves more lives. Corley: Crush makes a great point about prevention is winning. Prevention is is doing it. I mean, it really it's his article was awesome. Speaker 1: From the act from the ashes. Andrew Johnston: I can't remember what it was titled now, but Oh, yeah. No. Of course, everything he does is awesome. So to answer Joe's question, we I probably got a little off. Oh, we beat it up. Corley: This is scrap, man. That's what we do. That's what we do. Robert Mira said every drill must include the probability of success, but the possibility of failure. And I think that's a great one sentence encapsulation that if every training officer just operated off of that sentence, training would would improve dramatically across the country. Like just that one. Absolutely. That's that's a good one. Andrew Johnston: That's why he should have been the one doing this.

Corley: Hey, I think the one who did it did a great job. Andrew Johnston: I think just to touch on that or expand on it because that's something else I've I've talked with a lot of guys at work recently, even about it. Coming from a I'm gonna call it a smaller department with three stations, 20 population 21,000 or whatever, But probability factors into what we should train on. We can't be the jack of all trades and master of none. That's just, I think that's what we say, but it's not a reality. I mean, I guess it is a reality because we won't be the master of none, but we're not able to perform and prepare adequately across the board for what the fire service has become. The scope, the scope, which it is, has gotten huge. It's exponentially grown from the 70s and 80s. You know, a fire response, some vehicle accidents. And yes, they still did a lot of what we did, but hazmat came along in the 90s. That became a big thing. All the tech rescue and urban search and rescue components came along, you know, right there around 9-11. so What I look at as a smaller department is we're going to go to fires, whether it's a dozen a year or, you know, 30, we're going to go to fires in some capacity. We're gonna go to EMS calls. We know we're gonna go to car wrecks, things like that. But if I have to figure out something when I get there, even though I hate that statement or that quote, It's going to be something like trench. So the probability in our city, there's trenches all the time. There's stuff opened up, people putting in water lines, you know, whatever it is. Cable, fiber optics been huge for the last few years. There's open trenches all the time. Probability is always there. But what is the outcome as well? We know when a trench collapses. the survivability is a lot lower. So I know if I'm gonna have to decide if I'm gonna work on fire response or EMS response, things like that, or even hazmat, whatever it is, I'm gonna focus less on that. I know I got to shore it up. I know I have to put some ground pads around it. I got to shut equipment off. Like I know the whole process.

Andrew Johnston: Right. Get all the training, got the certification. Like, but I can't do that often enough without it costing somewhere else. So I think organizations have to look at what is your put threat potential, what's that probability, and what's the outcome. Speaker 1: Right. Andrew Johnston: So I would rather train on a three to five story apartment fire versus worry about trench. If I know most of the time they're going to be dead. And it sucks to say that, but that's the reality, right? And if not, I can throw a ladder and I can create an initial safe space to get in and try to effect an immediate rescue, just like hazmat. Yes. Corley: No, and what you're talking about is prioritization with limited resources. That's what we all have, is limited resources, especially in the suburban rural setting. We have extremely limited resources, but a vast majority of of skills and disciplines that we need to be versed in. And it's a prioritization of where are we going to spend our time. Where's my brain tower going? Where is the yeah to to decrease our cognitive or open up our cognitive bandwidth when that call comes in? And I'll even touch on EMS. The thing, the truth of the matter is we do a lot of EMS, and so we can actually count on the calls themselves to keep our skills somewhat focused. Not to mention, most states, I would say most, I think maybe all have EMS refreshers and ongoing CEUs required to keep that certification. Correct. Whereas in firefighting, I, you know Yeah.

Speaker 1: It just usually have a deep dive on that one or an argument or make a case. Andrew Johnston: No, not at all. but that's where I think you gotta look at it and go, okay, so once a year we're gonna do a quick refresher on trench Because then you can recall it. It's still going to be there in the back of our mind. You're going to be able to tug that out, but know that which one is going to be more time compressed and high consequence for us when you get into like the Gordon Graham high frequency, low risk, or you know, high risk, low frequency. Where does that fall in that matrix and and make that decision on how we build our training outline for the year? Corley: No, absolutely. The and you heard it here first. Andrew Johnston hates trench. No, and hazmat. I'll probably throw up if you say it hazmat. There you go. I like this one coming at you because it's a great question. Because this is kind of what the reason for the the work of search. Seth Drew wants to know how can a department without a training facility slash tower perform quality search trainings?

Andrew Johnston: Awesome. That's a good question. what I hope is some of that, even if it's not there yet, I hope you'll find that in the work of search when we start talking about the props because That was one of our things that we looked at as a drill team and creating some of that is basically breaking it down that you can do that with a set of pallets on the side of your station, even so you can minimize the number of pallets you got to get. Use one of the walls of your station. And create a single bedroom. If nothing else, start with that single bedroom. you can do, obviously, we don't want, as we've gotten more educated on cancer and some of those issues, we don't want PPE in our bunk rooms. But depending on the layout of your station, you can use at least your bunk room to search a bed, search the open floor space, things like that, right? And then depending on your jurisdiction, can you get an acquired an acquired structure once or twice a year? And then go in, run by goodwill. Ask if you can have a bunch of clothes. Take your stuff that your kids outgrown. throw that in there. Just remind your guys periodically, hey, if you're remodeling, bring some stuff by. You know, we can create something even in an acquired structure or look at investing in a connex. You know, you can one or two connexes for a small amount of money, even if it was donated from a local business or something. You can create options to have the ability to practice your search. But at a bare minimum, if you have no training grounds, no acquired structures, things like that. Just start with those pallets on the bay or we call it in the the army a glass house just on room clearance drills. That's how they started us in basic training, glasshouse drill tape it out on the ground or you know drag your foot in the dirt and you got a 12 by 12 room and everybody's got to come in the door and clear that room but everybody can see it You know, so talk through it. Verbalize it that you're searching the bed, check above the bed, search the bed, below the bed. Closets clear, rooms clear.

Corley: And there's something I'll say to this, which is doers do and talkers talk. And and I mean this. I don't mean this like in a in a contrite way. If you want to do search training Doers will do it and get it done. They'll do it with scotch tape or you know masking tape on the ground, chalk dragging their foot. Doers get it done And then other people say, well, we can't do it because of this. So you just got to decide which one you're going to be. And everybody has their challenges. Like I don't care how much what your budget is. Everybody's got their challenges. Doers overcome challenges and talkers get stopped by them. And so that's really what the I hope the work of search challenges people to do is remove some of those excuses for not getting stuff done. Andrew Johnston: Yes. And I think I what I hope is a lot of those drills, they have, you know, they explain the step-by-step process, but if they get into those props, you know A lot of your lumber yards will donate some of this stuff or things that are damaged. You know, you can do a wall breach with a few two by fours and a sheet of plywood and then just ask them for busted sheetrock. So, you know, 50 bucks you can build a Wall Breach prop that can sit on your bay floor. And that's it. You know, or use a pallet. Just. work on it and rebuild it off of just a plain old junk palette. So you can minimize your investment. It's just that like you said, how creative can you be? How much effort are you willing to put into it? A little bit of sweat equity will go long ways. Long way.

Corley: And you mentioned Goodwill. Like Goodwill and Salvation Arm. You can you can get a hold of them and you can get a a lot of clothes that they need to get rid of and it's a it's a you'll get more than you need especially if you say hey this we're doing this for our training it's amazing what they will they will donate so I I'm trying to think of who else there's some good ones you can get some some junk from that is phenomenal. Andrew Johnston: Salvation Army, whatever it is. I mean for sal for search training, it's phenomenal what you can get. DAV, they're all out there depending on your city and what they have. And most of the time, some of that stuff they can't put on the shelf. It's got too many things or whatever. They're going to give it to you. Zero cost. So go get it. and then like I said, Go find your lumber yards. Just ask them. It doesn't even have to be your big box stores. We, you know, for fire school, and we might mention that if we get close to the end, but like That's how we're able to do some of the live fire stuff or the acquired structure stuff we do as cheap as we do. We have several that we go to and we ask a couple times a year, hey, do you have anything we can take right now? And then we just go put it in storage.

Corley: So Andrew Johnston: Two by fours that are it's amazing what you can get when you ask, man. Corley: When you when you build a relationship with the place, man. We we had a relationship with a with a big box hardware store near us that It was they said, please just don't sell this stuff because it's damaged and things like that. We got rolls of carpet. We got full cabinets. I mean, this was some nice stuff that we were like. All right, you're seriously throwing this out? They're like, yeah. And it it became stuff that we put in our search, our what we called the ghetto house, which was four by eight panels, OSB panels that we knocked together with two by fours, and we built a little searchable house. It was a tiny little like 600 square feet, but it was pretty awesome. Andrew Johnston: Heck yeah. Well I the department I worked for before I moved over to Pittsburgh, there was a a a basement under it. It was a very it's a as far as I know it's the oldest. station that's still operational in the state. It was a 19, I think, 38, if I haven't forgotten. but there had a basement, a cold dump, all that. So we just built it into that basement because it was no longer a public storm shelter. It used to be like a fallout shelter from back in the World War II days and all of that. But we simply took some office partitions. We split it up. We made it like a two-bedroom bungalow. Two bedrooms, a little window prop within it, a wall breech prop in it. We put a bunk bed on the brick wall on hinges so it would drop down. So sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. And had a little kitchen. We put an old junk kitchen table from station two after one of the guys built an awesome kitchen table. And things like that put some old junk cabinets out of an acquired structure that was getting torn down and we train in. So you know, all you gotta do is be a little more innovative with what you're doing. And you can create a heck of a lot. And the in Pittsburgh our burn facility was Conex is donated by a local business.

Corley: That's awesome. And one thing to keep in mind, because this is a big thing, when you get stuff donated, especially garbage, because that's what we're talking about, getting garbage donated. Speaker 1: Yes. Corley: You have to get rid of it when it's over. And sometimes it's really fun to get stuff and put together a drill thing and it's sitting there But when it's done, especially if people spray water on it and things, it's close. If they go in there and spray water all around it, it's a it you got to clean it up too. So keep that in mind as part of the equity that's going to go into it is the cleanup when you're done. Andrew Johnston: Hard work on the backside, the fund Corley: Because yeah, the fun's done and then the work like the work of getting it done is done. The fun is done, and now the work of getting rid of it is is just keep keep that in mind because there is a cost of that and it can actually damage the pro the support that that the training gets if you're not clear on that and making having that as part of the process

Speaker 1: Yes. Corley: Andrew, we got tons of topics and we're already at like an hour and 15 minutes. So what do you want to hit? What's the what's the most important passionate one for you? We talked about the work of search. We talked about drilling and that's that's phenomenal. You wanna talk about fire school? Let's Andrew Johnston: Surviving one other go ahead. I was just looking at a couple of things I had sent you. I had a Printed off. Corley: I got them up. Like I like always, here's the deal. The guest sent me like 15 topics and we got through one of them. Right. Okay. That's how the that's how the scrap goes each and every time. Your call. Andrew Johnston: I'm I'm playing deal with the let's save we'll save fire school for just a minute. I think It's something that's changed, and we just talked about it a few minutes ago. I want to talk about just the passion in prioritizing training as the fire service as a whole, but at least in my perspective, from smaller departments in that makes up the majority of the American fire service, it has drifted. And I do think that we've gone through a hell of a training revolution over the last five to seven years. I don't know, just kind of a ballpark numbered on that. but with social media coming around and COVID creating the online connection for so many people and driving that through the roof, and now conferences being everywhere that they are. I still think we don't necessarily. And I, in my opinion, training should be second only to our emergency response. And we touched on it earlier that it's easy to prioritize that the station's got to be swept out, cleaned up. We've got to mow the lawn, we gotta test hose, we've got to do business inspections. We got to do all these PR events, blah, blah, blah. And they're all important. Everything is important. But are we making the case instead of constantly saying we're gonna we're gonna do more with less, we're gonna do more with less, where we're breaking and burning guys out. And you're seeing that with all the culture classes that are popping up. You're seeing that with all the emphasis on mental health and the recruiting and retention crisis that's going on. So Other than doing the job, training is the only thing as close to repeating it that you can do.

Andrew Johnston: And if you do it right, like we've talked about. That brings a whole lot of energy and passion to get to come to work, tear stuff up, do all sorts of fun stuff, climbing over the wall on a rope, whatever it is. There's so many things that You can bring that motivation back to the fire service if we prioritize training, but we also can uphold that expectation the public has of us, that blind faith in the fire service. That they have that we're going to show up and do our job. Right. We're going to be able to perform on their worst day. So their lives, our firefighters' lives, they're dependent on our performance capabilities as a team of teams Whether that's mutual aid because you're a single company department or you're a multi-company department counting on one another to do your jobs at the highest level. Not on our complacency laden levels of comfort that yield excuses in an attempt to justify our inaction video games, knowing our, you know, our our fantasy football team statistics, whatever. So from the bread and butter fire to that will never happen here fire, we can't let them down. So we've got to prioritize that training. And I think, if nothing else, there's all of these lawsuits that are showing up the last few years. That should be enough to drive change at an administrative level, not just the fire department, but even City Hall. If you're not seeing what's going on around the country and at least paying a little heed to it, that's negligence, not ignorance, because it's out there. So, you know, Augusta, Georgia, the dispatch system's broken. They didn't respond to a fatal fire right across the road from their fire station. You got the Flint, Michigan. They lied about and going off what's out on the error on the internet. They lied about doing the search. They didn't do it Pole County, Florida. You had the communication errors from the dispatch taking the TikTok videos or whatever it was, a failure to enter saying it was fully involved, but she had just been on the phone. You know what I mean? Like the lawsuit with in Illinois where the family was paid out $31 million. Now that settlement just happened, wasn't it a couple days ago? A couple days ago. And the ICs are are equally blank So, you know, at all levels of our organization, it's not just do you go out and train your firefighters and do you stand around and watch them?

Andrew Johnston: Are we doing things at all levels, professional development? strategic and tactical execution of our duties are we upholding that we've got to prioritize the training because that's why we exist And if you look at it like an insurance policy, do you want the insurance company that's going to give you a runaround and drag it out for months where you fight tooth and nail to get your settlement? Because the storm came through, or do you want the one that in in two simple phone calls, the adjusters there and the checks in the mail? Well yeah, that's the easy one for me. Do you want the ones that are going to deliver or do you want the ones that are going to jerk you around And make you cut through all the red tape just to get what you thought, what you expected. Corley: What you expected. No. And what's the what's the delta between what the what the citizens think we are And what most fire departments actually are. Correct. And I think we're living a lie to an ext to an extent. I'm not saying everywhere. No, no, not everywhere. Not not definitely not the people that listen to the scrap. They're the ones who are saying, yeah, they're Andrew's right. Andrew's right. They're the one saying it.

Speaker 1: Like they agree, but the fire service is living a lie. Andrew Johnston: We've we've gone undergone a recruiting and retention crisis, so you can't tell me that when we have young officers in their positions and even younger firefighters That we're going to uphold on their worst day for any call. And I'm not saying, you know, the The sun fell out of the sky type scenario. But we're talking, yes, bad shit happens in apartments and you've got countless victims trapped. You've got people jumping and you've got eight guys showing up. What are you gonna do? Did you ever think about it or do you just constantly do a quick on-and-stretch, a 200-foot pre-connect? You know, what are you doing to prepare? all of your people for that and working with building the mutual aid and training with them and stuff like that. So those should be our motivations for that. And then you know Chief Escuso has talked about that motivation. comes from it either comes from inspiration or desperation, I think is how he puts it. And that it's hard to I think build it sometimes off of inspiration. Oh without a doubt. But I would rather build it off of trying to inspire somebody than desperation. Oh without, yeah, again. Because why do we want to wait till something bad happens and all the bad pub publicity or one of our own, heaven forbid, we kill one of our own and then all of a sudden we decide to change.

Corley: And we are and we are very reactive in the fire service. It's one of our strengths and one of our downfalls is we we we we are slow to react. until we are slow to act until it is a reaction. Speaker 1: That's how I will say it. Andrew Johnston: It's we we let ourselves slip into that complacency and that's why I love the firehouse vigilance and and the creed and everything else. It's it is that never-ending fight against complacency because it's always there. Corley: Never ends. Never ends. And do you see Steve Robertson's post earlier this week? I don't know if you saw it. Dude, that was phenomenal. That was right in what we're talking about where he said it's not if, but when. Andrew Johnston: And it's the battle with the you know the difference between the doers and the command and stuff too. You've there's that dichotomy or that it exists. Corley: Everybody's facing their different battles. And that's the other part of it, is we we all are having We we talked about this today here in Burton, South Carolina. You can have six departments next to each other in a in a 30 square mile, and each one's their own silo and each one is their own authority. And that's a tough, that's a tough dynamic to also operate within

Andrew Johnston: Yes. And so you know that was that's kind of a long ways around. but I mean comparing small departments versus big departments. I mean, I think you've got to also look at with prioritizing training, for many years, we've said, well, we can't do an academy. And I know it's not everywhere. Some states require certain things before you can ever get hired. Kansas does not. We can hire somebody. And we don't have a true set time in when we have to get you your fire one and two. So I can hire you with nothing. We'll do roughly a Some departments do a two-week onboarding process. Some just put you straight on the truck. And we say you're going to learn on the job. But how do you Lay out that training and prioritize it. So compare, I did some math on this and it was kind of in the book too, but FDNY, they'll do an 18-week academy five days a week, roughly 10 hours a day, right? So that's 900 hours of training. If I only give you 80 hours, that's a big difference, right? So that's two and a half. That's a little different. Because then we say, okay, well, but I think one hour roughly checking the rig, doing station chores, you know, an hour of training and things like that. Just a couple, you know, you've heard the different variations. Three to four hours a day is all you ever got to give. And I think that's okay in departments that provide so much upfront and they pull you offline to do a driver's academy.

Corley: But if they don't provide that upfront, you're looking at you're looking at two years before you can even come close. Andrew Johnston: Just shy of two and a half. Corley: Okay. That you're behind. Oh, do the quick math. So yeah. Right. Andrew Johnston: So look at it in the financial aspect. That compound interest will outrun it over the course of the career. So now you're saying it's going to take two and a half years. For you doing one hour a day. And I know that's not exact because sometimes you're going to go and do other things. Corley: I think that's actually generous considering what people have to try and fit their training around. I think that's generous, but go ahead. Andrew Johnston: Right. And so Two and a half years just to get what that guy got before he ever stepped foot on a rig. So when you look at it as compound interest, you'll never catch that person. In in reality. So we've got to prioritize the training up front and make sure that we're giving these guys the the training they need to be successful on these emergency incidents and then you're gonna have to decide what when you build that curriculum you know if it's different if you're running 200 recruits versus

Speaker 1: If five recruits three. Absolutely. Andrew Johnston: How many reps you can get in a day? So that length of the academy can be adjusted But at the end of the day, when they hit the floor, what do you want them to be able to do? Right, right. So like in our department, we only get two weeks. So instead of doing what had been done in the past, You know, where you're gonna get a small amount of time on Mayday, small amount of time on RIT, effies all day, but we're gonna talk about inward, outward. you know, using increased mechanical advantage, gas powered, you know, garage doors. We're gonna talk about window bars. Corley: Oh, that's eight hours in one day. Yeah. Andrew Johnston: And then we don't touch it for the rest of the two weeks, but we expect you at two weeks and one day to force a door and take that line in the front door. You spent all day with a hose line, and then we are going to skip, you know, go on to that next topic for the next day, search, ground. No, no, we're setting them up for failure. Without a doubt. There's setting them up. So you got to narrow that scope. In a smaller department, you're going to have to narrow that scope. What's reality? What's your most likely event that they're going to go to? And narrow that in. But you've got to make that a priority. And I think we got to stop saying we can't and blaming the budget that we can't do four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks. But our cop counterparts will send them, like in Kansas, before they ever carry a pistol and go to a call on their own, they have to go to the academy 560 hours.

Corley: Right. Andrew Johnston: How many times in your city do they get in a firefight versus how many fires we go to? Whether you go to a bunch or not. You know, say we go to 15 in Pittsburgh where I'm from, how many times do they shoot somebody a year? Corley: Right. Andrew Johnston: No, no, the number they're putting that much training into their job. And driving, you know, driving is a part of their initial training, all of that, because the way they operate. Sure. What are we truly putting in to our personnel before we put them facing life or death consequences? And, you know, then you look at like in Fields' Nozzle Ford class. I was six, seven years in before I took his class. Never once had I ever practiced backing out of a house or encountering a hole. In the floor. Right. But we put those guys at two weeks in one day. Corley: What are we doing? Like we've got to change. We're setting them up. We we are we are I don't want to say setting them up for failure because I don't that's almost too dramatic, but we are not setting them up for success, without a doubt. I think that's an easier statement to make and be without being exaggerative, which I I absolutely think there are places we're setting them up for failure. And and disciplines. Man, no, you bring up awesome points. Now, I'm on the East Coast and I am a guest in this firehouse. Oh shoot. I know. And that's why, because I will sit here and talk about this stuff for hours with you. And I think I think it's a great scrap. So two things. A, we're going to have to continue this conversation, which means you have to come back on the scrap.

Speaker 1: And that's a good thing. Corley: Sounds good. But I also need to be somewhat Respectful of the people who allowed me to come into their firehouse. And I I've still got a training chief who's going to drive me back to my hotel when this is done. So all that being said I mean his I'm eating up his family time, so I'll be just 100% honest. So let's move to booker books that you think firefighters should be reading. Andrew Johnston: Sounds good. I can do that. Most of it is going to be in the book, so I'm not going to go down the list. This is everything that created the work of search Corley: So just just you can flip each one and say it out loud so the people who are listening can hear. Just go ahead. We're not on that much of a time crunch. Andrew Johnston: Just flip it up and volunteer training drills. There was that one. Corley: That one from fire engineering. Andrew Johnston: You got it. we'll go volunteer training officers handbook. That was another one. And some of these I just pulled little parts and pieces out of. Sure, sure. Like this one, developing firefighter resiliency. Rick George.

Corley: I always say Rick George, I forget the other guys. Galibsby and and I'm sorry guys. I apologize. Andrew Johnston: Rick Carpenter. And then because there is a performance or physicality component to all of our training, human performance for the tactical athlete, there was a human performance for the tactical athletes. Who wrote that one? that one is O2X. Corley: O2X? Andrew Johnston: Yeah, it didn't have an author, so it was that was actually the the group that developed that one. Yeah. to get into the Oodaloop, I mean obviously Boyd has his book, but I used Mind of Fire with Kyle Sensing. And I know you just kind of found out about that one a few months ago, I think. Right. I know it's not talked about a lot, but flow-based leadership. So getting in a flow state. And I think that's where we ultimately want to be when we kind of yes. So when we kind of end that training process and we're getting into and David Rhodes put the forward in that one as well. Right on. So that's been out for a few years. I talked about start with why because we got to give them the reason why all of this matters. It's got to make sense of why the information we're giving them and the skills that they're about to go beat their body up and sweat and Hate Life for a Little While Matters.

Corley: Not his best book. It's a great book. Andrew Johnston: No, yes, it but it's a good one these are the two that I use that matter. I'm gonna give you one more that ties in with that here in a second. The science of rapid skill acquisition. Corley: The science of rapid skill acquisition and the talent code. The talent code. Andrew Johnston: And that's the thing. They helped create the biggest chunk of this book. What I wish I would have known, but Robert Marez told me after I'd asked him, put it all together and asked him to look at. This one dumbs it down almost even more and mirrors a lot of what is said in it. So it's Learn, Improve, and Master by Nick Velasquez. So that's a good one for anybody, a company officer or anybody that's wanting to work on instructing, that would be the book I would tell you out of all of that to start with. Just go to that book straight out. And it's I think 20 bucks on Amazon or something. so I told you the other day just a couple more and The one that I'm gonna hit next because I learned through this process that that's actually what makes the best instructors and the ones that you are attracted to is their storytelling ability. And I didn't know it until really diving into this rabbit hole. So unleash the power of storytelling. Phenomenal. So I haven't read it, but it's brand new. I saw it had some decent reviews, so I'm gonna try it. And then I think This ties in very well because the recruiting and retention crisis, and I keep saying crisis because I think it's a big deal and it's gone unchecked for too long and it's going to have a long-lasting impact on the fire service. Absolutely. This lack of inexperience is an opportunity. But if we don't capitalize on that and invest in them and prioritize training, it's a threat because that inexperience will cost lives of citizens or our own people if we don't manage it. So the talent war and it is by Mike Sarelli and George Randall. One of those guys is from Blackhawk Down. And the the the focus of that book is on how you select people. So how are we hiring them? What are we hiring people for? And trying to not get lost in, did they show up in a suit?

Andrew Johnston: you know, a three-piece tux, whatever to the interview process and not just looking at that they have experience, but are we hiring for the right values, morals, ethics, those attributes? We can teach a monkey to do this job, but we need the right person. A good person can be a good firefighter. Right on. So it's not just about the performance. But we got to get the right people in the door. And instead of just taking whatever shows up, we're going to have to go out and find them. We're going to have to treat it like the military. 9-11's long gone. we won't forget those men that sacrificed that day. We won't forget that day. But the motivation to serve from that event is gone. No, the societal support from that event is has faded, without a doubt. It's it's an individualistic society, so we got to go find them. But I think that would help anybody that's on a recruiting or a hiring panel needs to read that book. Corley: You just made a lot of work for McGinn to add all those books to the list. Andrew Johnston: A lot of one who was on somebody else just had a whole buttload. I had more sitting over here. I was gonna do a couple or one for every position on the apparatus, but we'll call it quit. I do think it's important for people to look into because I'm terrible about it and I even I made a comment on Discord today. Especially even the last year with this book is It's been an awesome passion project, but I've not done the best throughout my entire career to balance life and work OCD and I'm ADHD and when I get on something I fixate on it and No way. So you ri you couldn't relate I'm sure But there, you know, your book, Broken Tools, Firefighter Marriage, those are all awesome ones. but anybody that has kids, strong fathers and strong daughters and raising men are two awesome books if you've got kids. Raising men. I don't know if I know this one. Have you told me? it's written it's written by a seal and I didn't pull it up. I don't have the book, I have it on Audible. So I have size.

Corley: You know my love affair, my love affair with strong daughters, strong strong fathers, strong daughters. Like I send that I've sent that book. I don't know I don't know how many anytime I meet a firefighter and they say you know, like I I I've sent out two copies this week because if that book changed my relationship with my daughters when they were young women and I wish I'd have read it when they were kids. Andrew Johnston: I wish I'd have read it when my stepkids were younger. You know, both of those. Corley: And and and so I've always looked for a a male version. So that's why I asked. That's what you piqued my interest because I I I send strong fathers to strong daughters to any firefighter I know who has a young daughter having they're expecting. And I've always looked for one for a boy Andrew Johnston: Check out Raising Men. I think you'll like it. I love that. I love that. Because of the army background and like I said, I'm just gonna mention a couple. I don't have them on hand, but I think Something we forget is that a lot of this stuff's never changed, especially when it comes to leadership. Not so much we'll get off a training for a second, but the Art of War by Sun Tzu and Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Those will show you that these same problems that we gripe and bitch about today, they've been around for centuries. Centuries. So we're not inventing new ways to kill ourselves. That's been said, you know, through some fire engineering articles and stuff like that We're also not creating new problems and failures in leadership. So we've got to read a book. The answers are out there. So as we're winding it down, I mean Just read a book on any topic, any rank, any position. There's so many options out there. As a father, as a mother, whatever, there's books out there. Go read them and become better. You can't find it all on a 15-second TikTok video clip. I'm sorry They are great. Social media has been great for training. It's opened up the fire service. But the the answer, the full answers aren't there

Corley: No, it's destroyed the attention span. It's destroyed nuance. And there is I I think you got me going down a rabbit hole. Can't do that. Okay. Blocking it out. Blocking it out, Andrew. No, you're good. All right. Five questions for firefighters time. You're aware of how this works. There are no right answers. There are only your opinions. Are you ready, Andrew Johnston, for the five questions for firefighters version 5. 0. Number one, you can do anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Andrew Johnston: I think if I could do it all over again, I think I would have done or pursued special forces in the army. I know you've said it before and we've talked about it. You're kind of an extroverted introvert. And I'm not Real good in huge groups. I'm not out there. I'm not the class clown. I'm not out in front of everybody. I take stuff too serious. and I'm very driven, especially when I have a target, something clear, the the guidelines and stuff are clear. I wish I would have pursued that. Avenue. Now that's also I say that tongue in cheek. I wouldn't have the life I have.

Speaker 1: I wouldn't have trouble with that my wife. Corley: So you know, looking at it from a total different perspective, but is it part of it wanting to know if you could have if you would if you could have Did I did you have what it takes type deal or is it like test your metal or do you is it different? Andrew Johnston: I think it's both. I want to tell you know I would have known or liked to know could I have made it But a lot of the other things that I've done, you know, within the military and the fire service and things like that, I'm driven even when things aren't good. You know, whether your department's good or things like that, over the the years, there's always those ups and downs. What are you doing in the downtimes? but I also work better in those small groups, and that's what they're They work in improv improvisation. Yeah, there's so much to special warfare that I guess I just think my Mindset might have fit better in that. And that's what I I think probably the only other option I would have liked to have done Corley: I love it. And that easy, easy max points off number one. Operator. Special forces operator. Number two, it's job town. It's time. You're in route and responding. What song are you playing while in route?

Andrew Johnston: This one I had to think about for a while and I I bet it catches some people off guard. I'm pretty big in into country music, but Go into a fire, MM, lose yourself. I don't know. Corley: We've had MM before is lose yourself already. Does it exist? Sam's checking. Andrew Johnston: I don't know if that one's on there or not. But Nope, the reason I say it's not all right, cool. Yeah. It's getting out of the looking at it from our perspective, you know, like I said, I look at a lot of this stuff from small to mid-sized department and You got to lose yourself in the moment. You get one shot. You know, you may not get another chance to make a grab or whatever it is. You get one shot to make that difference. And it's your moment. And as he goes through, I think it's perfect because it starts slow and it starts to amp up. So if you think about it just a couple blocks out. And then it that beat just starts to hit and your palms are sweaty, your knees are weak. That could be your your new guy who's like nervous, scared, shitless, or that old guy, you know, the one that's got a little complacent and then all of a sudden now there's a little bit of panic because it's on the line. It's oh yeah people trap you know you're going to be scoring the whole scene now now you're taking the absolutely the whole scene yeah I love it and so I you know this the other couple core or verses

Corley: don't relate, but I think that first one in the chorus kind of really hit and also you're you're you're you got it tied in you're getting the first few bars or the first first first course first verse first course 100% get you to the fire, which you're gonna get there in rapid response. So that's the that's the key. It's all about the mindset. I love it Max Points, one for two, two for two. Cold weekend at the station. This is a brand new question. I haven't asked this one before, live on the scrap. So cold weekend at the station. Checks are done. Training's done. Everything's done. Food's in the crock pot, cooking, and now you're in the day room. What is the movie you always finish no matter what point of the movie it's in and no matter how many times you've seen it but it's the movie you're clicking through the channels you see it and you always finish it what movie is that for you I'm gonna say I thought about a couple of the military ones but I think I would go with Andrew Johnston: Eight seconds. And so I rode bulls in high school and went to college for a year doing it before I joined the army and stuff like that. So I used to be able to quote Danger that whole movie. I could have told you everything. And I'm not, I think I told you ahead of time, like I'm not a big movie buff and I can't, my wife She can remember every song like a couple chords into it when it comes on. I can't tell you who sung it, what song it is. I might be able to sing along, but my brain doesn't work that way.

Corley: You just ripped off some MM pretty good. Andrew Johnston: So I think you're selling yourself sure. But Eight Seconds was an awesome movie, and and then I've even used it as some parallels in training, like bull riding, and but just more of grit and resiliency in the fire service. one of the things they told us riding bulls was you gotta keep your mind in the middle. You heard it over and out over and over, your your eyes in the middle. So where your eyes go, you go. And I think a lot of that ties well into the fire service that if you're not focused on the mission or the goals, which is staying on, this ride, which is rough, crazy, and never the same, each time you turn out the gate, then you're gonna end up in the dirt. So if you look away or if you focus on the negative, that's another parallel I've made with it. If you're constantly focused on the negative, that's all you're going to see. So where your eyes go, your mind goes. Corley: I love it. Just like skiing downhill. You focus on the trees, you're going to hit the trees. You're dang right. Aim for the gap. If you focus on the gaps, you'll hit the gaps. I love it. Eight seconds, max points. Three for three. You're killing it. On the clock. You got one minute to answer, Andrew. I don't know if you can do this. You got one minute. You are riding backwards, backseat firefighter, four-man apparatus, engineer truck, your choice. You get to pick the other three. Driver Officer and a second back seat. Who are you doing and go?

Andrew Johnston: Rick Mosier, Jonathan Jarvis, and Josh Franklin. I guess you proved me wrong. I mean if it was a brand new question, I probably couldn't have done it. I'd have had to think on it. Corley: boom, boom, boom. Andrew Johnston: And I had a couple other very, very close ones. is that all Kansas? Is that all Kansas Hall personal? That is all Kansas and all personal. And so Rick Mosier, man, that guy knows an engine inside and out. He'd be the driver. He can build a rig. He's crazy. So Corley: Jonathan Jarvis I don't want to the wrong way, but he's like Rain Man when it comes to apparatus. Exactly. Andrew Johnston: Him and Dennis Laguerre are on a different level two of the PS. You can't I don't even know how you can compete with that Jarvis, he's a he just made captain recently on Rescue One out in Wichita. And so between him and the GNLMS, that's how I met Jarvis. He's taught and tied in with him but just his personality, he, because I'm kind of I err on that glass half empty kind of side. I'm not the most upbeat He's the opposite. And so that guy brings me up every time I'm around him. There's always an awesome conversation, the mindset. And I need that. Sometimes it's that balance. It's that counter to where I'm at sometimes. And Josh Franklin started in Parsons excuse me where I started and that one's probably more personal than anything that guy loves the job and he ended up in Wichita after He went out there, tried to get on Wichita, and ended up with Sedgwick County, came back because of his mom. So he gave up being close to his dream, working in an urban department To do the right thing and spend time with his mom when she was sick. But that guy changed the course of my career. he's actually what took me to Wichita Hot and to that training in Edmund with Mark Von Oppen. Yeah. Okay. So had it not been for him, like I said, I loved the job, but I didn't know there was a whole nother level I didn't know you could go outside your four walls and and you've talked about that countless times that there is no walls when you get outside. I think that was another crush quote, right? It's a crush quote.

Andrew Johnston: But had it not been for him, I don't think I'd be where I am today. And I don't think I'd have the recognition and the passion for search because my first fire of my career was a fatality fire. when I got on hired on within a month and a half. So that's also why I'm big on prioritizing training. We were doing the IFSA stuff, holding an ankle. It was I put the fan at the door of a 80 plus percent involved in house flowed water before we ever went and found this room with known occupants on dispatch. He was there that night, you know, said, man, you guys, at least you were in there, you know, that there was a conversation that was had that I can still remember pretty vividly. But He took me to which the hot was which was where I met the NEMS and learned a whole lot more about search. And that's when I had that aha moment that we're not as good as we think we are. And there might be blood on our hands. We could have been better. And the information was there. It was only a handful of years difference between when it happened. There was no excuse for us to do what we did. Some of it was that was all we knew at the time, but in hindsight, there was also other things we should have known because we isolated ourselves. Like you said, that you had a conversation out there today. there's too much siloing Still in the fire service.

Speaker 1: Yes. Andrew Johnston: And you know, Charleston had set the example many years ago on how to recover from that. But that means we also shouldn't be repeating that mistake and have to go through their recovery process. We should learn from that and prevent it. So long story to to say that those are that's my for and and why I settled on Corley: Hey, easy max points. And you did in four technically you got their names out in four seconds. I think the answer I think the answer was a little longer. I might have cheated a little bit. Number five, final question. It never changes. Heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES? Andrew Johnston: I think that ought to be a pretty easy answer, especially just off the story I just told that that one has stuck with me through my career. And coming from a small department, it was we always responded with two engines and search, you know, you had to get water on the fire. You got to make those priorities, but search for a long portion of our career wasn't made a priority. So I'm gonna go for that vest all day long. just because I I do believe it should be a priority. We gotta get water on the fire, absolutely.

Speaker 1: But I think what conditions dictated Corley: Do what? I think with you being the lead on the work of search, if you didn't say it, I think that would that would call into question. It would have to be a very be a little suspect. No, and there you go. The five questions for firefighters according to Andrew Johnston, five for five, max points, killer job this evening My brother, if someone wants to get a hold of you, what is the best way to do so? Andrew Johnston: I I've told a lot of people like on I can hear you. Corley: Are you back? Talk to me, goose. Andrew Johnston: I can hear you. Corley: Oh, okay. Well, I lost Andrew. I lost Andrew. Andrew Johnston: What's the best way for someone to get a hold of you? So on social media, I'm only on Facebook, but I don't have friends or anything, but you can definitely find me on there andrew johnston and you can hit me on messenger or I'll give my cell phone 620778 8461 or you can use my email andrew johnston3 at hotmail. com Corley: Love it. Challenge for the listeners from now till the next scrap. What is Andrew Johnson's challenge between now and next Tuesday?

Andrew Johnston: So education's key. I think that's kind of the overarching theme for the night. So if you don't already, follow all the following firefighter close calls. You gotta know about when the line of duty deaths are coming out. I think that's the easiest way of knowing when we have wrecks, people in the hospital across the country, sometimes even internationally. chief Goldfetter does a heck of a job on that one. Firefighter rescue survey, you should be following it it following it, firefighter Mayday survey, data knot drama, and then obviously search culture should be at the top of that list. And coffee cup drills. Those are easy. You can do that every morning. And they put out some pretty good stuff. if you're not enrolled in it and you haven't done anything, I would get N U L F S R I classes. Right and download the BrassTacks and Hardfax app. They're even redoing some of the videos, I believe. But with your new recruits, you can show some awesome quick little videos. On water, you know, Aaron Trayman, anything they've got Christian loss calculator too. Corley: Just the this nozzle reactor, everything about that app is just amazing. Yeah, if you're not if you don't have it, why not? It's it's a free freaking app with so much information

Andrew Johnston: And if you're already following it, because a lot of them that are probably listening tonight may already know about most of those, then at least mention it between now and next week. Try to get some of your people exposed to it. Maybe the passive exposure. will help them see why we care and that this stuff does happen and could happen in your backyard tomorrow. Guess suggestion from you. Who needs to be on the scrap? Got just a couple of them. Rick Mosier, you heard that one. He's busier than all get out. They keep him running up there in Olatha. Jarvis, I think you would have an awesome conversation with him if you can ever get him on. And Chunk, I know you've had Trey, but I've known those guys since I think 2017 now. And one, while we were in Colorado, I think you stepped out for that morning. Matt Rush retired out of Houston. I think he said he lives in Idaho or Montana. His class on Stand pipes, high-rises, sprinklers, the whole system. That was awesome. Okay. I think you could bring him on. Yeah, I did not get to catch it. That would be an awesome one just to have him on and come on and talk about that whole class.

Corley: Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Dude, you absolutely crushed it tonight. Like seriously. Like absolutely crushed it. I think it was so much. Housekeeping for me. Go to patreon. com, the vigilantes. Go become a vigilante. Discord is up. Discord is where everything happens. Discord is where they do things like get Sam a helmet and work and and and and support each other and have the Thursday night peer support meetings and I'm telling you, man, the vigilantes are unreal. So if you're not one, go become one. Sam will be posting the link for the after party. It is coming up as we speak. And I'm heading home tomorrow. I'm super excited about getting back home and getting ready for Thanksgiving. Next week, it is Cory Perrin. and Frank Lieb. Cory Perrin is Crackle Magazine. Frank Lieb is part of Crackle Magazine. It's going to be an awesome conversation. with Cory Perrin, Frank Leave. And then following that, get ready. Dave Quick coming on. So you better be ready for some hose and nozzle fire behavior. Just just Nozzle decision making. If you want you want knowledge, next two weeks, it's coming at you. Search overload, nozzle overload, Frank Lieb. Thank you once again, Andrew Johnston, for sharing your evening and being a phenomenal guest. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart, being a doer, taking the lead, taking the challenge that I threw at your feet. And absolutely knocking it way beyond my expectations. And and I know everybody on the drill team will say it. You're going to downplay it, but you were the reason it got done. And so thank you. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Audience, I love you. You tune in every week, you make the scrap magical, and I can never thank you enough for your amazing questions, your support I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe.

Speaker 1: So stay smart out there.