Weekly Scrap #237 - Paul Capo, When Things Go Bad

Corley: Corley Moore talking to you for a few short minutes while we're waiting for the scrap to begin. The scrap will be starting here in just a few minutes, and I'm gonna talk to you more. Well everyone talking to you for a few short minutes about becoming a vigilante. If you are not a vigilante, why not? It is a collection of the coolest cats from across the world, firefighters from around the world getting together in a group and supporting each other. It's an amazing group to be a part of. Every Day, people are posting their questions, their problems, their advice. It is powerful to belong to, one of the best collections of people, and you can be a part of it. We got stuff like the the swag. The swag is awesome. Don't get me wrong, the swag is awesome. That's not what it's about, but you got vigilante-only swag, like the custom bookmarks made by Taylor's Tins. For the vigilantes. You got stuff like the the blacked out, vigilante hats, and the vigilante shirts, all available in the exclusive vigilante only shop, which All of that stuff is sold not I don't want to say at no markup but like at the lowest possible price you can basically sell it for and so And it's not even about the swag, although that's just that's just the awesome part of it. We do forums is some of the best, most gifted subject matter experts coming in and they have conversations. It's like a scrap. Think of the scrap, but you're in it also in the call, able to ask and have conversations and talk. It's a it's an amazing time. We do I've got the fourth episode of the Fire Away. Fire Away coming up this month. And in a fire away, I go live and just field questions. People post questions, field questions And we answer and discuss those questions from firefighters across the world. It's a good time to fire aways the forums. It's an amazing time. Not to mention Every time there's a conference and vigilantes get together, we we have a vigilante meetup. We're forming, we're in the process of forming traditions. that are gonna that are gonna make and how those how those happen and what it means when you hate when you get like your vigilante coin which is also another thing that's pretty Pretty freaking cool is the vigilante coin, the blackout coin.

Corley: They're numbered, they're exclusive, and we're figuring out how that's gonna work out when we get together in person and we have and we we're supposed to recite the creed. We do this for others Push, train, learn, master ourselves. Never easy. Never quit. Man, if you're not a member of the vigilantes, I'm just asking you, why not? I wanted to talk to you for a few minutes while the scrap is about to start. You can go to firehousevigilance. com. Five bucks a month You are a member of the vigilantes. You can also sign up for a year if you prefer that over the subscription. FirehouseVigilance. com. Become a member today, man. You will not regret it. The scrap will be starting soon. Thanks for listening to me Corymore, Firehouse Vigilance, it is Weekly scrap number 237. Joined on this episode by Paul Capo. He has been a firefighter. Since 1996 serves as Division Chief of Operations and Training with the Estes Valley Fire Protection District in Estes Park, Cal and and I'm still reeling from the news, but we're gonna talk about it. But in SES Park, Colorado, prior to his position in Colorado, he retired from Clearwater Fire Rescue, where he was a lieutenant on Truck 45 downtown Pauly Capo is the founder of When Things Go Bad, Incorporated, where he develops a vast complement of firefighter curriculum and training on multiple subjects in Fire Service Academia. He and his crew can be seen on Fire Engineering's training minutes as well as When Things Go Bad Training Digital Video Series on YouTube. Paul has he has the BAs, he has the masters. He is not afraid to put in the work. Most importantly, he is a passionate in all areas of firefighting. It is my absolute pleasure to have you on as the guest of weekly scrap number 237. Welcome, my brother, Paul Capo.

Paul Capo: Thank you for having me. I've been excited since we spoke about this a couple months ago. So I appreciate it. I'm humbled to be here. I'm excited, brother. Corley: This is it's already been like bombs dropping tonight before we even went live is there anything I missed, anything you would like to add to the introduction? No, you you hit it. Awesome. Okay, I'm checking Amanda is checking Instagram for she says it's working. It sounds good Sound and video is good. Okay, so it's working. Everybody, I'm Samless tonight. Sam is doing the internet struggle bus that I went through last year. He is now fighting it. And so now it's me. And so I've got a laptop here, a laptop here, two z two internet set up and and my guest Paul and then the audience so all that being said let's talk about those beautiful sponsors The OG sponsor of the scrap is Kehos. You can check them out online at Kehhose. com and follow them on Facebook. Affordable Drill Towers on a mission to bring you cost-effective and versatile training props With more than sixty drill towers installed, the affordable drill tower comes in several configuration and comes standard with a standpipe system. Choose from one or two sets of stairs, place it against your connex boxes for multi-story access or free standing on a slab. All models are NFPA 1402 compliant and gain you ISO credit. The only thing you can't do in an affordable drill tower is live fire training. And of course, pump and roll using the affordable standpipe prop. You can roll your affordable standpipe prop into the classroom where you can talk about standpipe theory and PRVs and all that kind of stuff. and then you roll it out into the parking lot and actually pump on it for realistic flows and pressures. It comes with up to seven stand pipe valves that can be upgraded to PRVs. The Affordable Bellout Prop allows you to practice window bailouts, ladder bailouts, ladder high point rescues. It's only 5 feet wide, 7 feet long. The affordable bailout prop can roll under any 12-foot overhead door. so you can train on the apparatus floor or in the parking lot. Call Steve 844-55 Tower or drop an email to info at affordable drilltowers. com. Firefighter safety and accountability starts with being able to quickly find and identify individual firefighters operating on the fire ground Identifier safety combines the best in photoluminescent materials for durable firefighter identification solutions that can glow for up to 20 hours, no switches.

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Paul Capo: Okay. Corley: They're saying sounds good. It's working great. Most of them were replying to me saying it sounds good, working great, coming in clear. Checking in from Florida. Let's go. That comes from Cody Brooks. All running smooth. Looks and sounds great, guys. Okay, IG is good. There we go. The man, the myth, the legend. Looking forward to this scrap that comes from Scott Vatican. I might even say it wrong. Vatican? Clue me in Scott Notepad and Pin at the Ready Let's Go comes from Steve Kaiser checking in from Australia. Pauly is the man, one of the best in the fire service. That comes from 850 Fireman There you go. Puleski County, Georgia. Hell yeah, with one, two, three, four, five rocker horns coming at you from Dave DeMart. So there you go. There's a lot of hype coming at you. So thanks guys We will get right into it. We'll get right into firefighter rescue and firefighter survival. I'm gonna throw it right into your wheelhouse, basically right into when things go bad. What are we getting right? As a fire service, and what are we still missing the mark on? And it's a broad toss so that you can take it whatever direction you want, but that's that'll be the opener as we discuss.

Paul Capo: All right. well I'd have to say that we are getting a lot right. I am extremely optimistic and where we're going, but more importantly of where we have been. when I got into fire service twenty-eight years ago, firefighter rescue was not really much of a thing, right? So it wasn't tangible, so to speak. So 1993, Brycland Street, three firefighters died. Jim Crawford, you know, started making American Heat VHS tapes and We were watching them and of course well 1950 and we'll go back to the establishment of Rescue One, right, in New York City. That's the sole the the first company dedicated to save other firefighters. So yes, it's been around for over a hundred years. However, it wasn't taught in Minimum Standards Fire Academy. There wasn't much classes that you could go to to to to learn how to not die the same way that we used to die. With that said The last 15-20 years, I believe that we've been doing a lot of right things. Of course, now we have a standard, right, NFPA 1407. we never had. So that means technology has now got brought up to speed in regards to UACs are now a standard as we all know that never used to be. we not only went from Rip Pack Scott Rip Pack One to Two to Three and now we have the fast pack. So we're getting smaller, but yet more volume. So I know I'm I'm coming at it from all different angles, but I believe the fire service culture, right? Culture is just what we do. That's the definition, my definition of culture, is doing firefighter rescue and firefighter survival, two separate entities. from from day one in fire academy that I've seen. So without getting into techniques and and skill sets, I believe we're we're we're doing a phenomenal phenomenal job in the last last two decades.

Corley: So Love it. I absolutely love it. So that is what we're getting right. So I want to say what are we still missing the mark on? I want to still I still want to get that in there. Paul Capo: Okay, I'm here ya and I I kinda intentionally I d I if you want to, it's it's your show. Yeah, no, no, no. so th this is I guess again is is getting better, but I still get frustrated at certain things in regards to firefighter rescue and survival. It's it's the it's the I guess recognizing the space you're going to be at when you feel like death is imminent, either on yourself or another brother or sister firefighters. Now, of course I I watch your your your podcasts and I re I'm read read books, student of the job, and we're talking about this way more, but I title it as the physiology of self-preservation. And that is transitioning from your prefrontal cortex. That that cognitive and rational mind that we have right now to your amygdala, right? So we a lot of people say different coins that in different terms and your mammalian brain, your amygdala. And and and and gaining success there as much as you can or eliminating getting to that space is is is where we haven't We haven't hit the home run. I'll just give you a couple supporting details on this. So July 25th, 1987, John Nance falls in a hole, 27-year veteran in Columbus, Ohio, right? goes in, fight a fire, he's a few months out retiring, falls in a hole, not injured, right? not in fire, fires moved on, degradated the floor, but the joists were still intact. Like Like wasn't wasn't the end of the world if we look at it now. Okay. So Columbus, Columbus, Ohio, Columbus Fire went and Attempted that rescue and we look could look at that rescue solely, though there's many others, and find out it's like, man, all this time to do to rescue, I'll skip to the end right now. They never lowered him air after the after plan A or plan B or plan C what was failing. It's like how come they didn't lower John Ayer? He was conscious, he was alert, they touched him, he reaches his hand up How come they didn't let him air in the nozzle?

Paul Capo: Like this is rational behavior. Like this is just like this is right common sense. However, I'm being Facetious with the common sense part. Absolutely. Let's just move back a little bit in the rescue. You know, Columbus Fire tried to use saws to large the opening. And how come that didn't work? Well, the smoke choked out the saws. You know, everyone online's answering that. Yeah, the choke. the smoke, you know, choked out the saw or they put the ladder in, it was straight up and down because the hole wasn't big enough to be on a you know 75 degree climbing angle, so straight up and down John Mance, his last attempt, he he climbed that ladder and he hit his head on the floor joists over and over and over and so if you if you Think about the setting there. What happened was it's straight up and down. He's on the wrong side of the ladder. The ladder, if he would have gone up this way, it would have gone out the hole. But he's up this way and he's hit his head on the floor, right? Make sense? So John Nance perseverance took over and he and he kept hitting his head until you succeed or you die trying it. And that's what happened. But you would think you'd be like, you know, there's gotta be a hole somewhere because the ladder came through it How come you know what's oh I have to go on the other side? Just just nitpicking this is just for one example. Right. So now I still see drills in firefighter rescue arena where they have to calculate the depth of of the hole and then pull up holes and and divide it by four and and and tie knots in it. This is in a textbook, actually. This drill exists. And not understanding that amygdala transition, right? Right Right, without getting off on on on my whole little lecture here. that that skill that I just mentioned is is unachievable in that environment. Now If we were rescuing a civilian in a manhole and we had to do some calculations and create a mechanic, you know, all of it, absolutely. we have fine motor skills because our blood is not shutting from right, all of this. So So I guess what we're doing wrong is is is all of us, right?

Paul Capo: still needs to understand that physiology change when we feel death is imminent. So we can simplify the skills, make them pass the three E's, right? Are they effective? Are they efficient? But most of all now, are they executable under survival stress? Now, executable under survival stress We could talk for the next few hours on what does that mean, right? Right, right. Now we have to understand the the physiological changes. So And only in that arena. Like we don't have to discuss this when we're forcing doors or you know or stretching lines, of course. But so that that's where I think we we can we could just do a a little better on that Corley: I love it. Are you ready for your first I I a great great answer to the question? Are you ready for your first question from the audience? Let's go. I've got a serious one. Then I've got one from Sean Becker who says, do you miss T45, Polly? Yes, I do, Sean. Yes, I do. Very much so. I figured that was kind of a serio I mean a a soft toss. And then Rob Ramirez chiming in because this is who I learned most of my stuff about Liz. You say you say the fancy term amygdala And I I try to pronounce it right and not say Amy G. Dahlia, right? And but he says lizard brain and that's that's what I absolutely identify with lizard when I fall back into my lizard brain He says this is the OG of all things firefighter survival and rescue and physiological changes. His message had a tremendous influence on the Mayday mindset. So there you go. But the first question coming at you in this series was from Preston Lyons, coming at you from Colorado. Chief, we are often taught in the academy to move quickly and execute tasks as fast as possible. How do we teach them to slow down and not rush into their own Mayday?

Paul Capo: Hmm, sure. well in I think another audience member of yours, Matt Coke well is teaching a class for me next week while I'll be out of town and his station one of his stations is is the disorientation station. And the whole point of the disorientation station is to not get disorientated in the first place, right? So how we reorientate ourselves. And I'll tell you it's a great question because we have to. there's a couple ways I can tackle this question. Okay. So because I just got out of that physiology Quick little over over spiel. when we get amped up, right, our cones and our rods and our eyes change shape. They do that after catecholamines get released. Catecholamines are like epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, and and part of a lot of awesome things is tunnel vision, and it and it's awesome when it's awesome. It lets you focus on a task-oriented skill. It kind of blocks out things things I'm sorry, like if you if you're boxing and you and you're in the ring, right? You don't want to hear your mom saying, oh, you know, step left. You know, you want to be focused on the jab coming. So tunnel vision isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, in our arena, it almost certainly is. So one of the things to answer your question on that on the physiology side is We need to slow down. So we need to slow down. So I know you asked how to and we'll we'll kind of get there in a second, but if we slow down, now we go to to Matt Coke. Well's start of his station is we get to read the building. We get to see that's that's a that's a bay window in the front by the front door. Okay, that's our living room and on the The delta side I I see two 36 inch high sills with a small frosted glass in the center. So two bedrooms and a bathroom. Oh there's a bump out on the Bravo side. Oh that's the stairwell. So You are will never read a building like this if if if you have now this tunnel vision going on, right? Right. So Andy Fredericks, right, said he coined the line up when garbage men turn the corner and see garbage, they don't lose their mind. Right. When we turn the corner and see fire, I mean we shouldn't lose our mind, right?

Paul Capo: get a little lamped up. Absolutely, right? We're we're fighting fire. We know we're rescuing people. And again, this physical physiological change is not always bad So, revert back to the question. One is slowing down. And the best way to to join your somatic nervous system with your autonomic nervous system, right? What you can't control and what you can't control is breathing. So we could start eliminating some of those ph physi physiological amp-ups by just breathing, whether it's box breathing or skip breathing, etc. So breathing, right? And I'm saying these like small little tangible things because the overwhelming way to overcome this is experience. But I didn't get 20 years experience, you know, like like right now, because the more experience you get, then then the more inoculated you get to to to these jobs that we go and and they're they're not They're not all running run of the mill jobs, but a lot a lot of that you get be able to you know comprehend more. So to answer your question on on one aspect is we slow down, we slow down by breathing. Okay? I would say another way, right, that we could maximize that experience word is by realistic training. So studies have shown that by realistic training can can stress inoculate yourself to to the real thing to the point so much where it can even you could have so much realistic training where it makes the real thing pretty much a non-event. I'll use this as an example. Bomb techs. Let's say that dressing The Hurt Locker was an old movie, right? They dress in bomb suits and they and they You hurt me when you say Hurt Locker's an old movie, but go ahead. I'm with you. Well show right. And they're walking down the road. well these bomb techs Biometrics go down the closer. So their heart rate and their blood pressure starts going down the closer they get to the bomb. Oh wow. Like how does that even make sense? You think the threat's higher, but it's not. It's because now they're in control. When when the further they are, they're not in they're not in control. So You go through some realistic training, right? It doesn't take much to activate your midbrain or to do some stress inoculation. It doesn't have to be extreme, extreme. but then when you go to these jobs You you've been there before.

Paul Capo: So back to the question. slow your breathing on the way. We'll we'll definitely slow that physiological rise, as well as of course realistic training multiple, multiple, multiple times. We'll get some stress inoculation in, and then you'll be able to to kind of comprehend a little more where you could read the building. Do a good rig to door without tripping over something silly, etc. Right on. yeah, and then I would say probably the the last thing, and it's kind of the to the training thing. is like anything, right? Like like Corley, you're speaking next week, next week at FDIC, and and many of the audience, you know, they speak, whether it's on a company level or on a grand stage. Well A lot of times you can get extremely extremely anxious if we're not prepared. But the more prepared we are, the more we know our stuff, right? the more we feel good about it, then you're more excited. Rather than nervous, right? So the difference between excited and nervous is psychological, not physiological. The same thing you feel when you're both. but it's it's I'm now psychologically excited to do this. So the more I train, the more I know how to use my tools, the more I slow down because I know I'm more efficient. I'm not karate kicking the door. I'm not doing stuff with the with the irons at the front door. No, I I I know. And it's just like, all right. I'll force it now because I can, you know? But yeah, you gap it and you know you force the door. So competency, okay, it's my left my third piece to this and my last piece, competency. innately makes you makes you slow down because that's how the senior man does it. They're so competent. They have so much experience. They're like, all right. Let's slow down and let's walk down the hill, you know? So the more competent you are, the more efficient you'll be, and thus in return, you'll be able to be more productive at a slower pace. So competency, breathing, and and some stress inoculation.

Corley: Love it. What a beautiful answer. So many sound bites in there. I I I did the the competency on the senior man And for those who are who don't know, Google the old bull and the young bull and walking down the hill. And Yes, absolutely. So coming at you following up, you kind of already touched on it, but I do want to hit you with Steve Kaiser's question coming at you from Australia. Could you expand a little more on X Executable under survival stress. Paul Capo: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So like I like I said We just gotta we just gotta remember that this is in the firefighter survival and firefighter rescue arena and just to define those, you know, firefighter survival is anything you do to save yourself, right? So it's your head-first bailouts, your rope slides, your wall breaching to get from a bad environment to another, it's the reorientation, it's the reading couplings. It's you know, so Excuse me. So that's survival. Firefighter rescue is everything you do to save another brother or sister, and that's plethora of skills, right? Up the stairs, drags, packaging. So in those two arenas, now we're talking about executable under survival stress because Where we're going with this answer is you shouldn't be there on the normal fire where you're forcing doors, doing searches, stretching lines, throwing ladders, cutting holes in roofs, right? you should be a little excited, but we should we shouldn't be going to the point now where physiologically we're getting in a bad spot. So now to answer your question, now that we defined those. I said it should be effective. So let me just use the Nanstrel as an example because we were using this we talked about the subfloor rescue. Is does this move get mass out of a hole? Yep, it does. Okay, it's effective. Is it efficient, right? that means like is it not just this crazy robust drill? Do I have to go to the heavy rescue down the street to get the the Nance drill bag? No, that's not efficient It's gotta be right now. It's gotta be like in your pocket right now. It's gotta be that hose line right now. So that's that. So if it's not one Either one, they gotta pass them. You gotta make it that. Okay, like it has to be now in this arena.

Paul Capo: And then the last thing to your question is, is it executable under survival stress? So right now we're using our prefrontal cortex, right? And it's our it's our forebrain and we're able to cognitively process things where we can rationalize things where here's an example my brother from Australia. You're driving down the road, right? And you got your kids in the back and they're talking and you're just like zoning out, you know, wishing you were at the firehouse. And all of a sudden a red ball runs in front of your your car. So you slam on the brakes. It's like why did you slam on the brakes? Were you afraid the ball was gonna hurt your car? It's like no. It's the kid running behind the ball that that you stop, right? That split second. It cognitively processes the ball equals the kid. Another way we cognitively process is Brothers spell right now. Well, I don't know if I'm asking a guy from Australia. You have to pick Australia, but I'll say it anyway. Spell US's first president that we've ever had, last name backwards Go. Now we can, right? Where it's like George Washington. So like Washington N-O-T. Like we can, but it's good. Right, we get there, but it takes, yeah, you gotta you gotta consciously think about it. Very much so So it's split second or you cognitively has to process it. Both of those ways, right, and some others in between, they're gone. When we start ramping up this physiology self-preservation. We shun blood, as I said before, from our peripherals, our our fingers and our toes. to our bigger muscles for strength and speed, biceps, triceps, lats, back, you know, glutes, so we can we can run, we can be faster, right? So we've all felt that before, that catecholamine release and we get all of that. So so that happens. Well, in lieu of that awesomeness We lose fine motor skills because the dexterity, the blood, the hemoglobin, right? All that i is now getting shunted and it's gone So just using those two as an example is that the big W drill where I said where we have to determine how far they're down the hole. Get that much length of hose times four. Then we have to do this thing. Now we can't see by the way, but forget that.

Paul Capo: And now we have to double them up. And then we gotta tie a figure eight on a bite and put these carabin. Okay So we're tying knots, we have to do mathematics, right? Like this is not executable under survival stress. Corley: Right. Paul Capo: Out. But it is effective. Okay, let's say that. So people like put it in the book. It's the Nanstrill. I don't even use the the original the handcuff knot and I could we could do it just like that. I would have done the handcuff knot, but But it's it's it's yet a knot. So we have a way where no knots, real efficient, like like really slick. I'll give you one more example just to to to let and then you you probably already understand executable on the survival stress, but Our entanglement simulator, you go through an entanglement simulator and you just have any old wire cutters and you put them in your pocket and you're like, cool, I'm golden Until you get entangled and then you pull out your wire cards and you go to cut that AC duct wire that falls on you, and there's a stripping notch in your wire cutter. And it goes right in that stripping notch and you can't cut it. So you think you're gonna go like, oh, halfway. I'm just gonna do that and go halfway. No, you're not. Fine motor skills are gone. You are now, you call it lizard brain, right? But you're in that midbrain activation is only responsible for four things, fight, flight, feeding, and fornicating. So you're in that fight, flight, right? And you're just going banshee on this thing. And perseverance is going to take over, and you're going to succeed or die trying, right? So you can't have a stripping notch in your wire cutters because it's going to be in that arena of firefighter, rescue, or survival You can't have a leatherman as you right on my best day on my deck with no on my house. I can't open my beer with my leatherman if I had motor skills, right? you can't have a little safety latch that keeps them closed Like those fine motor skills have got to be out in the firefighter rescue and survival arena. So that's what I mean, and every firefighter, rescue, and survival skill set. you know, carabiners, you know, to wrap around your bell rope to wrap around a lake, organic anchor in a bedroom, whatever, whatever the scenario is.

Paul Capo: you gotta look at that And you have to understand that because it it'll work on your kitchen table and it'll work in in training. But then when it really now happens. It's not gonna happen. That's what I mean by executable under sub officers. And that's to the first question you asked me, Corley, is that's kind of where we go wrong because I read these case studies and we look, I'll stay with the Nance. You look at it and you're like, boom, I got my finger on it. We need to get firemen how to get out of holes. And you're you're right, we do. And I think we did good. But what we don't put our finger on is how come they didn't they didn't lower him air? How come they didn't lower him a nozzle? How come they tried saws? How come John hit his head? Why? Because John's best friend, named Vic Runkel, was at the top of the hole. It was his best friend. He was the best man at his wedding. Okay. John. is is July 25th. He's retiring in October. Vic knows this. He's at the top of the hole trying to affect this rescue. You think Vic's in his right mind We don't rise to the occasion as crazy as it sounds. We sink to the level of our training, especially in this. We are the most innovative people in the whole world, firefighters. However, When our physiological, right? When we start changing, things get a little different. So that's what I mean about executable and survival stress. We have to look at every every drill in regards to rescue and survival, and we gotta make sure that we're able to Provide the maximum amount of certainty in that skill when our sympathetic nervous system is activated.

Corley: Love it, man. What a great answer. And Steve Kaiser said, great answer. Thanks. Heaps. Thanks heaps. I'll try to do can I do an Australian accent? Great answer. I can't. Oh yeah, terrible. No. Alright, we'll work on it in the after party. Jared Terry coming at you. Building on Preston's earlier question, again, in your opinion, what are the best drills that can prepare us for firefighter survival Mayday situations? Or just basically what are your favorite drills to teach? Paul Capo: Hmm. Oh wow. Man, there's so many. well I just said the natural. that's the logo of when things go bad, right? you know I feel so close to all of these the these these drills because there's a fatality associated to all you know firefighter up the stairs vinnie fowler nineteen ninety nine you know captain in New York and of course Mark Langbart in in Denver on September twenty eighth nineteen ninety two and You know, you get the Pang Warehouse, the Walbreach, you know, like ever every state every station I feel so I feel so connected to. But let me try to answer your question. I have to say, I'd probably have to say the reorientation drill, though it is not our most dynamic drill that you can do by by no means, I'd have to say it is the highest propensity to occur, right? I think we've all we all crawled down a smoky hallway, we all got disorientated at one point, right? Whether we're calling for our partner, we have to slow down to hear the saws going to figure out where we're at. So we've all got disorientated And that could lead that that could lead to a to an extremely fatal event. and I believe it did to my brother in Shawnee, Kansas, John Glazier. who I happen to have I happened to he was a student of mine actually in in St. Pete College, when I taught at St. Pete College Fire Academy. So he he's very near and dear to my heart. So I g I would say that a reorientation drill And learning how to reorientate yourself, whether it be with floor coverings and and of course, you know, doors swings and et cetera, that we do, is is probably a foundational baseline drill that that would probably most likely to happen. Right. Right. So but yeah, I could I could go on and on about the drills we speak.

Paul Capo: The drills we teach, excuse me. Corley: No, and I love the fact that you say like every one of them is based on it on and on tragedy. You know, they're they're not they're not willy-nilly just someone throwing together. They're all they're all built on on a lot that has come before us. Paul Capo: Well, Corley, I'm just gonna enhance that a little bit. Corley: Yes. Paul Capo: I I know it all my my mentor, Jim, well I have quite a few, and but he would always say, you gotta read these NIAS, you gotta read U. S. Fire Administration techniques. Rescue reports like you have to read these things. And I was brand new firefighter, and I was like, well, this is pretty morose, right? So I started reading reading all of these, but I'll tell you by by attaching a fatality to a firefighter rescue drill not only honors that firefighter and doesn't make hopefully make us die the same way someone else does, but it also sells the drill To all because I've heard this question being asked on your podcast many times. Like how do you how do you get the old senior firefighters or the mutts, you know, to to get off the lazy boys and train when they don't want to, etc. etc. So but by by talking through a fatality, right? Like I did with John or a little bit or of anyone. You say, well, what are we gonna do here at this at this fire department to not let that happen right tonight if that happened And they're like, I don't know. It's like, well, it's unexcusable because we know about it. We know about it. So have something in the bay right now that that can eliminate that from happening. Right, so if you just go out there and do the Denver drill, it's like man, I don't want to do that. It's like the hardest drill there is, right? Yeah, but if you explain the instances of short of life fatality about Mark Langbart on September 28th and 1992 and explaining this man by the end of that video you you got six ways to get them out you know so learning from the past but setting it up by a real fatality really creates buy-in and that I've seen big time. So before when you go to every skill station that that we teach, we we we unfortunately talk about you know the fallen in the past so they don't die in vain.

Corley: Right on. Right on coming at you, Ben Jones. Love you, Ben. What are your thoughts about the FDTN writ entry bag and how does it compare to Scott Ritt packs and true north bags? So obviously he's comparing to quite a few different brands here, but just your thoughts on them because well you're the subject matter expert. Paul Capo: Well, well easy. Easy with that. First up. Anything with Jim McCormick on it, you know It it's gold, right? Corley: Yeah. Paul Capo: there's certain like the Nike shoe, right? I buy it though I don't even have to try it on because it it's just it's so credible. And that's Jim. Jim's been doing this Forever and when you when you have anything with Jim McCormick, you know it's it's tried and true. Never mind his cadre, but him too, they're firemen, right? They're firemen. They're not engineers in some cubicle that trying to come up with something. so and you know the true north, you know, I get I get it. I'm nothing bad about it. I I would probably say to you is that do they meet the objectives, right? And and and and by standard they do. Do they have a UAC, do they have a mask, do they have a a regulator? Now the regulators crapshoot because it has to be towards towards the the spec that you're going to MSA towards MSA but if you have the mask you can do a hot mask changeover you just can't do a regulator swap you know that the EBBS connection that you could possibly give air to so I'm gonna say They're all great because of the objective. I I I don't like weighing them down with with everything In them, right? A lot of that stuff should be in your pockets anyway, you know, a couple little things, especially if your department's trained on it, okay. But but there to give you air. I really like the the fast pack, the latest rip bag from Scott I was on the operational committee for RIT Pack 3 and the they got the RIT the fast pack right from the RIT Pack 3. Just way more condensed, really quick. And why? It's not as big, it don't have the the the hard plastic bottom that the red pack three you know but it meets the objective and it does it very very well nice yeah

Corley: And I always get, you know, my guests always get leery. Not not that you did at all. You'd a great, great, great answer. So please don't take this. But whenever someone brings up brands and stuff, they're like Can we say this on here or not? It's a scrap. You can say whatever you want. Even my sponsors, I tell them, hey, if my guest does not like you, they may say something that you may not like about you, and that's just the way it is. So 100%. Paul Capo: No, and again you said what are we doing right? And I said 20 years ago, we didn't have nothing. Right. We were bringing in air packs. and we thought we were innovative and and pass devices are growing. Oh shoot, we didn't even have pass devices back when we were bringing air packs. It was a you know the the pole ones. But now look. our our our problem is which one do you like out of all these brands? Right. Corley: No, that's that's a good problem to have again. Great. What do you call it? First world problems? Yeah, right. Yeah. No, it is. It's great, man. Greg Bien Bienik Disorientation station. Can you elaborate on what's involved?

Paul Capo: Yeah, well sure. it starts off from the outside like we do. We size up the building. I remember going in I'm already going off on tangent. I remember going in I I was downtown high rise or on the squad and early on and I'd go in and Jim Carino would would look at me and he goes, what color is the building? I have no idea. We'd go in the next one. How many floors is the building? Like I've I I have no idea, right? So he's like, hey, you got you gotta you gotta look at the building before you go in. So it starts out reading the building from the outside So granted, if you had a tower, right, maybe it's not realistic. However, you could chalk on the outside, different window sills, you know, 54-inch high sills, the kitchen, etc. Or you could teach this, right? so We s we we size up we size up the structure from the outside. And that goes to commercial occupancies as well. You know, you have a strip center, you know it's a shotgun occupancy. You only have alpha and Charlie E-Grass, you know, you're not jumping out of windows on Bravo and Delta. Like it just it goes, you know, which the how big is the cockloft, you know, for a 14 feet cock loft, you only have eight feet inside, like like we could have a problem up here, like sofa superstory, you know. So sizing up from your disorientation is the outside Then once we go in, we start right away. Now things should match once we go in from the outside. Right. Because I already sized it up a little bit, right? So if it don't then then we really have to recalibrate or something else is going on and rare times that happens but we go in you know we run 100 miles an hour to the front door and as soon as we open it with zero biz like we go really slow right It shouldn't quite happen like that. We should comprehend some stuff on the outside. Not everyone doing a 360. That that's not that's not it, you know. But you get inside and then you start feeling floor coverings. So floor coverings start telling you Sometimes where we're at, at the very least, it's gonna tell you when you're changing space.

Paul Capo: So let's say you you come in and you got some carpet So you're you're on a wall or or you're you're you're flowing through depending on visibility and and and and your tactics. but the next thing is item orientation and we teach item orientation. So I don't want to know the make and model of everything that and brand name of what you're looking at. I don't want it to be like that. We got to go swiftly. But all right, I got a couch here. I got carpet. I just walked in the door. You're in the living room, brother So now you you're making your way through the house and you transition floors. So a lot of people don't recognize floor coverings. They just they just haul. But now I'm going into a different harder space. Well, I'm going into a different space generally and It's like, okay, now I'm in here and now I feel a sink. Okay, well, I got hard floor. All right, I I'm in a I'm in a kitchen, right? So we do this all throughout. We start going down. I teach something called winging out. So every now and then you wing out, especially when you think you're in a hallway, and you start winging out and you feel two sides. It's like great and I get really excited when I'm in fires and I wing out because I know victims are on the way, hopefully bec not hopefully, but you know what I mean. safe space. Safe space. You're good. The bedrooms and bathrooms are down here, right? So we know. So I wing it out hallways. Good. So now I come across a door and it swings away from me. Swings away from me from let's say you know tile floor to now now carpet go in a bedroom and i saw the bedroom window on the outside we talked about the frosted glass here the other bedroom here so like it's it's like clicking in my mind i know where i'm at The next one, hard to hard, door sings away, hard floor mean, all right, now I got a bathroom. Yeah, you gotta go in there, you gotta check the closet, you gotta go in there, you gotta check the tub. You know, I already know my next bedroom. So like if I start getting beat by by fire behind me like it blowing out the kitchen, the line's not in yet, you know, searching ahead with the line on the truck.

Paul Capo: I'm not I'm not really petrified right now Because I know I gotta confine you know a a space I can confine. I got a bedroom, depending on what floor I'm on, but it's like you s you start just getting more more confident as you start going through the building when you when you know where you are the whole time. So we go through we go through when we start we start feeling all this out. Of course they're blacked out, right? And they they hopefully find everything that they got. And then when they're at their end at the end, we disorientate them. the the best we can. We take him through this little maze, we spin him around, we do some things to him, and then we put him in a place. And then we'll say get out of the building as fast as you can. And and I don't want you to get to the front door. That's not necessarily the point. It's out of the building. So if if they're down and they wing out, they're like, okay, I'm gonna go to the bedroom. They go to the bedroom, they shut the door to the bedroom, like here's my room, you know, here's my window. It's like perfect. And then we'll tell them like, all right, now get get to the front door. I want to see you get to the front door. And they'll go and hopefully get to the front door in an expedient fashion. And if there's a lot of There's a lot of things we interject, you know, on you know during this, like, you know, whether do I do I feel the wall the whole way or can I go directly to it? You know, so all of those little teaching points. But it's mainly floor coverings, door swings, item orientation is is the ultimate thing, right? I don't know where I'm at, but I feel a toilet. Right. Right. Item orientation and then and then we disorientate them and it's good. And it's a single firefighter evolution. So how we how we claim it is you're part of a search team, but you're like the officer. So you're on the wall orientating you know, you and your your crew rather be irons and or irons in can, right? So two or three of you. But you don't have the crew.

Paul Capo: You're not really searching for an objective. What you're doing is you're orientating yourself throughout the building. And let's see how that looks. And and that's how we teach it. And so it takes a little bit. I you have to throw a lot of instructors in on that because depending on how many students you have, it's a one-to-one ratio. Right You know what I mean? No, wow. Time intensive. Yeah. Corley: No, absolutely, man. Paul Capo: I love it. Corley: Great question. Thank you for sending it. And thank you for answering it, man. Yeah, absolutely. James Griffin wants to know what can we do to teach what can we do or teach to get a firefighter to call a Mayday sooner rather than later? That's a great question. Paul Capo: All right So I have a little I have a twist that's that's not really supporting your question. So Okay, okay, okay. All right, so here we go The point of firefighter survival training is to make problems that you would call a Mayday for. Less. So here you go. So there were books of old that would say these are the reasons you should call a Mayday. And it's When you get disoriented. Disoriented. When you are entangled, you call them a day. When you have to bail out of a building, right? And it would say all of these things. So I disagree with that to a point because we're teaching how to get out of entanglement. And one of our four ways, it's a paced methodology, but one of the four ways you get out, I believe, and this is so bold, go for it to these four ways I'm gonna say 100% of the time you get out of your entanglement. Not a collapse, an entanglement. So now when you were entangled yesterday, you might have to call the Mayday But you're entangled now today after the class. You're like, I got this, man. Why? Because I've trained on this. And I got not only stop and back up or swim or cut or doff my like I I know how to get out. So you don't need to call the Mayday to have the rapid intervention team come in to rescue you because it's a non-event. if we we do the you go through the disorientation station. You're like, all right, before I call a Mayday right now and and and let's change it, we're changing the fire scene, right?

Paul Capo: I'm gonna reorientate myself, right? So I say that, okay, to say that with some successful firefighter survival training your maydays can well the point is right that that they should ultimately decrease a little because you know survival skills. However, to back up what you're saying, we need to have a culture to call for help quick as as quick as any as Quicker, of course. Right? So I support you. So I use this example now to support your question. Now that I got my my thing out. I love it. We're the only public safety industry That are so prideful to call for help. Let me explain. Okay. Police, right? So me, Corley, yourself Couple other dudes are driving in our blacked-out Tahoe with black rims, right? Tinted up, driving down the road. We get pulled over by a cop. All right What they're gonna say is, shh, you know you send me some backup and another officer is gonna come and one's gonna walk on the driver's side and stop at the B post, the other's gonna go on the passenger side They just called a Mayday. They just called for help because they said, I don't want to do it by myself. I can't do it by myself. Army. You just use a branch of the military, right? Back in the day they used to fight in foxholes. All of a sudden the enemy is overwhelming them in foxholes. What did they do? They go chs get the air force in, soften the ground. Air force comes in and Softens the ground and next thing you know they come out and they clean it up. What did they do? They called a mate. They called for help so her other brothers can come and they can clean the way in front of them. But yet us We get disorientated in a fire and now we're anxious right away to call for our brothers to come in and help us so we get made fun of at the kitchen table. That is unacceptable And I agree with you, and I know where you're going with this question, so you asked more of a question, but I'm taking it as a statement. I love it. We need to change the co change the culture, right? That To eliminate this pride, this unhealthy pride, you know what I mean by this, and be able to call for firefighters to come and help early, right?

Paul Capo: Disorientated, whatever the case, and then afterwards it's just a pat on the back or cancel the Mayday. Whatever this can be de-escalated really quick. But that's the culture that we have, rather than trying to get ourselves more and more and more of a mess. So Entanglement scenario, I just said that and I said disorientation. May Age are integrated in both of those skill stations. Our naked SCBA drill, you have to call the Mayday before you get on the hose to read the coupling to get out, like because you have an SCBA emergency. Like Maydays is in integrated in all of our, well not say all of our stations, but a majority of our stations to call them quick. And now back to the Australia firefighter question is it's got to be executable in the survival stress and we teach who, what, where rather than lunar and some other things. It's too mentally exhausting. So yes, we I am big on Mayday. I'm big on Mayday early. Corley: However you got me? No no no a hundred percent and I love the fact that the analogy you made to the military and the cops, which is Hey, these are situations where it's not even it's not out of the ordinary. It's just normal. It's normal. Exactly. Normal. That's it. Yes. Yes. That and that that's the answer to the question. So it's a beautiful beautiful at first I was like, I wasn't follow I wasn't tracking, I'll be honest with you. And then the analogies really brought it home. The stories brought it home. They call their friends all the time for help. Yes. Yes. It's normal. No, that's great. It fires me up. And James Griffin said, love it, brother. Great answer, max points. Preemptive max points, but absolutely crushed that answer, max points. So I gotta I'm gonna try I'm gonna try and do this in a Basil Ibrahim voice. Oh, is he on? I'm gonna try and say bro. Bruh. Is Basil on? He's on. Now that the EBSS, EBBS is universal. You can low press your buddy breathe from Scott TMSA, vice versa. In the old setup, prior to the conversion of Universal Connection, you could buddy breathe between two Scott packs. You would breathe down the lowest bottle first. If it was two MSAs, you would breathe down the fullest bottle first.

Corley: So my question is now that it's universal, do you have any idea is When you buddy breathe from a scott to an MSA, which bottle is breathed down first or is there a is there is there a standard or do we even know? Paul Capo: You know, I don't I would have to I would have to phone a friend and I have a couple. in regards to manufacturers. I would still believe, Basil, that it is a and I'm I'm just shooting from the hip. Right. that we're it there's a difference between pressure and volume, right? So I I would still believe that this is a volume deal. Corley: But yes, before I start start going somewhere getting into the specifics and I don't want to put you on the spot, but again, it was a great question because I honestly piqued my curiosity. I'm like, no, because it always The way I learned it was, you know, you're draining the low guy, you know, and then and then it was now you're draining the high guy until you know until you're the high guy. But I don't know. So short answer to the long answer to the short question is we don't know. And that's a great question. Yeah, and we'll get the answer. We will. And we'll follow up. We'll follow up in here. Alright, thank you, Basil. Although it was a very long question, by the way. Sam called it a novel. I will say a novelette. Alright, scrolling. I'm scrolling, brother. I got the Mayday question in. That was one of my favorite questions of the night, by the way. Favorite answers to the night Pocket dump, what do you carry in your pockets for firefighter survival rescue?

Paul Capo: Yeah. Alright So I carry my my tools on my right pocket on my my bunker pants and for firefighter rescue I carry a pair of wire cutters in there and I I carry them handles down and working head up so my gloved hand can find the working head and and and pull them out and I don't grab the the handle and And open that up. But so I I carry that in my pocket. I also carry a razor knife, real executable on the survival stress, because it's it it's it's really easy, right? Don't don't use that on so much in in my firefighter survival stuff and one time we did mini blinds. We got caught in mini blinds and the the wire cutters wouldn't cut the mini mini blind wires and and the razor knife did but But nonetheless, I'm going to add it to my firefighter survival complement, though I carry a bunch more stuff. So wire cutters and razor knife there. On my left side, I carry 40 feet of 8mm PER. So personal escape rope. Whatever the brand is. I like Sterling, but whatever the brand, they're all they all make, you know, nice 64 carrier sheath and nylon core or Technora Aramid Core, however you do it. But 8 mil I I like 40 feet and I carry it in there for everything. I actually give out this sheet of paper or many sheets of paper. in in my classes and it's actually on my website too so you guys can go and grab it of the plethora of things to do with that rope. So here I go and I'm gonna continue answering your questions in a sec. I believe in bailout kits. Okay. I used to carry it on the job. and but it's only for bailout. If you use it once, then you gotta get a new bailout kit. right so I I agree and you and and you need it to bail out. However, some departments and not in high-rise district or maybe the threat isn't extremely high I still say carry 40 feet of PER personal escape rope and you can use it for everything. By all means, bail out with it it right but i also tie off my halligan and and throw it out the window or the upper stores and vent the floor below with that rope I also if I'm searching I need to search off a line I don't feel comfortable you know you could you know, just take my my carabine and jerk off for 40 feet.

Paul Capo: I I I do a billion things. The Nanstril, right? In my in my pocket. A lot of high anchor hauls with it. I almost pulled a rescue off with this. So like the list the list is dragon firefires, two to one, blah blah blah blah. So if you carry something in your pocket I you should you you should you should be able to use it for a bunch of things. So I carry that and I use it all the time and I'll just say for bailout rope. So for that. So I got bailout rope. I got my wire cutters in down there. I got my razor knife. two carabiners. All right, I carry two carabiners on my hip and one at the end of my rope, so real really three. So I utilize that. I carry a second set of wire cutters up here in my old radio pocket, right? So right I I still I don't I like that pocket for my wire cutters. so I put my second set there. And last thing I I would say is I carry a Prussic. I carry seven foot of Prussic that I use for more of a rapid intervention, more you know, more for firefighter rescue than I do for survival, but I use it for feed first drags and Just a a a bunch of things. So yeah. now I carry a lot more stuff. I carry a lot more. I carry webbing for hasty harness for civilians. I carry Robogrips and multi-screwdrivers and I I carry a 15 foot tape measure like I can't I carry stuff I just for firefighter survival it's those what five things right right no beautiful beautiful great answer absolutely

Corley: All right. Boom. Scrolling, I'm scrolling. I want to hit you with 60 minute. Jake Deal wants to know your opinion. 60 minute rip pack versus 30 minutes. You kind of hit on you like the fast pack, but can you elaborate which one you like better or why or or go ahead? Paul Capo: Sure. So it's hard for me to say not more air, right? I'll say it's hard for me not to say 60 minute bottle. So Final answer. yeah, rapid intervention isn't rapid and all all of that stuff. And I I believe I believe we we can be, right, somewhat. But I would say air. Like I said earlier about which brand, which's the objective. And if it's to provide air, then then let's bring air in. So You know, I I also hear this battle too. It's like the writ bag is just for the down firefighter, right? I'm like, cool And you you you UAC it if that's the case. And actually I'm gonna hit on that here in a second. Go ahead. You UAC it and and you know equalizes and everything. And but one out of every five RIT team members gets into trouble themselves. So I have that that statistic from my trainings in two family, single family two-story single-family dwellings, the two 1,144 firefighters in Southwest Supermarket with Brett Fire Brett Tar Tarver.

Corley: Tarver. Tarver. Paul Capo: Yeah, that Brunicini put him in. One out of five Ritie members got into trouble there from that statistic of that. So can you use it for like a rescuer that That's run alone on air. That's a I say absolutely or else like that doesn't make much sense because or else they're gonna be your your second down down firefighter. So is it primarily for the down firefighter? Absolutely. But it it's air. We should not rely on that as rescuers. We should have through some experience be be rotating out and getting fresh crews in there and anticipating that need, you know, with the With the new standard for 33% vibralert going off now, we're seeing I'm seeing it less that we're running out of air inside and being a little more diligent. But so answer is 60 minute. So I would I I still like that. now go going into airway. This is not your question, but I I feel cum compelled to go. Go. I love it. I love it when people go on tangents. So Please feel free. I'd like to say it's focused on the wrapping and the writbag question, but Mike Basil said well there's there's four ways that we could put somebody on on air. Okay. So we have the UAC Okay, and we know it's standardized. Right. And we have the regulator swap for compliant packs, right? Regulator.

Corley: Right. Paul Capo: And we have a mask for hot mass changeover. And then we have like Basil said, we have the EBBS. Now the EBBS, emergency body breathing connection, that that's to to utilize that if the spec of the bottle, because you don't of that pack has EBBS, you can put air through that, right? It's a closed system. Without teaching the whole thing, right? Those are the four. My issue with with people is this. is that they prioritize those four. And it's grossly inappropriate. So the first thing I say is you what people say is UAC Well, I'm gonna UAC him. This is it. This is all you gotta do. I UAC and UAC. Well, I'm gonna throw this at you and then you'll you'll you'll this will answer my question that I'm proposing myself. Okay Go in a burning building, run out of air, and allow yourself to suffocate with your mask and regulator on It's not gonna happen if you're conscious, right? If you're unconscious, then you know, okay. You're not going to right going to now, right? Survive and you're gonna if you have if you had the composure, you'll take off your regulator Or you're gonna rip your face off. Rip your mask off, right. All right. So if your focus on my plan A is the UAC, you did nothing for this downfirement. The first thing you have to do is assess them. So it's airway is first, but you gotta go to the face. And you gotta go to the face and you gotta assess them. If they don't have a mask on, The UAC isn't doing nothing for you. Right, right. You gotta put a mask on. So is your training to put their mask on, you know, or our mask that we're bringing in? So We gotta do something. So you put the mask on. If if you palpate their face and they don't have a regulator and you come in, then it's a regulator swap. It's not a UAC. So my answer is all four of the best. It's the what is the one that you need to do for this down fireman? And then I'll stop there.

Corley: Does that make sense? Timestamp, go for the face, said Dan Bender. Absolutely. Thanks for the answer and going even further, Max Points. That's a big deal. You have to troubleshoot first, and Basil Ibrahim said that. Yeah. I like this one. Alan wants to know. I'm not sure which Alan it is, but Alan wants to know. How about the pros and cons of using a pickoff strap instead of traditional air pack conversion? Paul Capo: Yeah, so I'm not exactly sure what you're saying by pick off strap, but I got a couple in my head. Whatever works, brother. Whatever works. So I've seen of course, the hound strap or or the piece of webbing, let's say, you know, that this big with two carabiners on it And you clip it and you go between the legs and you clip it on the other and it's and it's b jam up, right? And it's you're you're converting, I mean you're you're you're doing the same thing as the conversion between the belts. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's it's phenomenal. If that's what you mean by pick-off, and I'll talk about a couple others here. you know, people do a synch strap. So my only thing, and this is why I don't teach that that to the masses. is because my only thing is you have to have that when you need it. So are you carrying it in your bunker bag, you know, your your your bunker pocket? And if so, is it only for that? So you might go twenty years and never use it. Hopefully you don't, right? But and you carried it the whole time. So you have to have it when you need it. If it's in your writ bag, then appropriate right because you know you're going to a down firefighter that you might have to package and it's there so I like those things in the writ bag but as we know firefighters are getting saved more by the firefighters surrounding in the building, right? So you go over to them, you go to package them, and again, where is that thing? So I teach the the waist the waist belt conversion because it takes nothing, right? No additional equipment. and they have it, right? Because It's on them. So sometimes I I believe that's what you're saying, but some other things are like, you know, a strap that you put on the shoulder strap.

Paul Capo: And you drag and I'm not a big fan of those though like I have a prussic I told you and it's seven foot and it's not technical rescue prussic but a little bigger right but and and you can use that as a leash but We we we've we've known that the DRDs didn't equate to what the intention was initially. There was a phenomenal idea. I was in big support of those and and and it's still There for an emergent in my in my teaching for an emergent procedure when the when the pack's off when pack pack is stripped off like like Unfortunately, many fatalities in the past got so it's there it's there for that. But if you're gonna to to use something that that's long like a strap or the DRD, as soon as you make your first corner as soon as you gotta go up and over something, you're resorting to the to the shoulder straps to make that corner to go up and over. a four inch palette, you know, like not even much. So the DRD just was it so if you're talking about a strap in regards to drag don't love it. If you're talking about conversion, which I think you are, I love it. It's just it's gotta be there when you need it.

Corley: Boom. Boom! Dude You may try to avoid the SME title, but you are absolutely crushing the subject. let me see what I got. I like this one coming from Matt Cookwell. Chief, how do we get our ops chief to look into different tactics? such as arrival assignments or splitting the truck without seeming cavalier or overly aggressive. For the citizens, not about me. Paul Capo: Okay Let's see what time it is here, because I I love we could be we could be here for a bit. So now we're we're changing we're changing arenas. So You never know which direction it's coming at you. So I just yeah, go ahead. I love it. So I I want to make sure that I'm staying staying focused. So I've done this battle before, I'd say, unfortunately, well, unfortunately, a few times in regards to the ops chief thing. So this is what the I I I battle it this way, right? So I list all the things the truck does. So the problem the problem with the the fire America in the fire in some Northeast, far out west. you know, we could pick the departments that do truck company ops, but they they utilize the f the truck as an engine. And and now you're not doing truck company ops. It's whatever, you know, they're they're pulling second lines or they're laying in, you know, the they're They're not even made a lay-in, right? So so first off, we have to set the truck up with personnel ability, hence the personnel. the run cards have to be there that they're going on the assignments that that you need them to and not medicals and everything else. So so it's a whole truck culture that has to get introduced. So and this is kind of the question. He talked about splitting assignments, so I'm gonna go there Say the ops chief. It's like, all right, Chief, we know what we got to do when we get there, right? We got to put the fire out. So that's engine company ops. I'll stop there with all of that. But we got to go in and do a search, right? Yeah, you got to do a search. All right. ventilation, right? Kind of got to do that one way horizontally, vertically. Okay, you've got to do that. Okay. we gotta force the door, yeah.

Paul Capo: You gotta force the door, okay. we gotta pull ceiling, right? Because it might be in the in the attic or or just proactively pull ceiling, maybe might be in the walls, right? We gotta do that, yeah, we gotta do that. So we gotta throw ladders. I mean you bought all these ladders We've got to throw ladders for for firemen bailing out or some rescues, proactive tasks, right? So we gotta we gotta so you start listing all these truck company operations. You say, all right, Chief, what don't you want us to do? Because if we're taking all four of us here and we're running around the building all doing one thing, then I gotta know what do you want us to do? You want us to to force the door? Do you want us to To go in and search? Okay, cool, you know. So you you can't even force you can't even search safely with four a four firefighter crew, right? Unless you split them up. But but anyways, so you say, well how I think we can do a lot of them, a lot of them, all simultaneously, by splitting up our crew at inside and outside crews. So if we're talking four, now we could talk three firefighters as as well, and there's a little different map there, but absolutely And inside an outside crew, right? So so we're gonna go in and and we're gonna go force the door, we're gonna go in, we're gonna pull some seal and we're gonna do some do do a search and we're g to be accountable to the engine for tools and they're gonna be accountable for us for water and Yachtside crew is gonna handle you know, ladders and ventilations appropriately and so and they're gonna they yeah they're gonna do utilities or you know that's a s that's a heavy thing or you know heavy rescue thing or not. So, so now you you you show them and you prove to them or you tell them, listen, I could be more productive on the fire scene by splitting up my crews and doing this. I'll will eliminate radio traffic. How do you eliminate radio traffic? Well, it's very simple. I just told you all the things we're gonna do. So the chiefs don't have to tell me to go in and search. That's what I do.

Paul Capo: Don't tell me I'm searching. That's all I do. I go in, I force the door, I pull seal and I search. Like you don't got to assign that. You don't got to assign ladders on the fire ground. That's what they do. So we're going to be more productive, we're going to eliminate radio traffic, we're going to provide a safer scene. Well, how are you going to do that? Well, all the things I just said, ladders are going to be done, ventilation to be done. I'm gonna ensure a diverse tool assignment is throughout the building. Well what do you mean? Well because that firefighter is called irons position. They're bringing the irons. My job is the officer, I'm bringing a hook in Halligan, you know. So if you're bringing three in, well that's the can. The canon hook is coming in. Like the thing that gets me when I listen to fires, right? And they say, they're 20 minutes in the fire. They go, I need a pipe hole in here. It's like, you need a what? Where? Like Every fire you ask, I need a pipe hole there. How do you not know that every fire you're gonna need to bring a pipe pole? Right? So we don't have to do that no more. The Hook and Hallians coming in, the irons are coming in, the Canon, you know, and all this stuff's happening. The VES is happening because that's what they do. And they become very, very, very proficient at it. That's their jam. That's what they do. My driver, my tillerman and my driver, my alti crew, and all of them, on my past apartment, but they w they annihilate it. They annihilate the outside. Like they're on the roof. They're waiting with their rope in the halligan, waiting to throw it off. The Charlie Side's Vented, Chief. You know, it's like that's their jam That's what they do. Bulkheads open on the attack stairwell. So it's not this the truck pulled the second line. Right. Now you're assigning the full third, fourth due engine to do truck company stuff. They don't they're just not as proficient. They don't have the tools on the rigs or whatever the case is. So, Matt, to answer your question, this is a lengthy discussion that I would have. I even have a little PowerPoint on the productivity of the truck crew and how I do the different puzzle pieces and then how I put them together.

Paul Capo: We can anticipate what we're gonna have to do in regards to truck company. all of it, but on the fire ground and we already know w who we're bringing, like three, four, you know. So why don't we attach those tasks to those people and then it's called functional assignments Functional assignments split the right way. You get so much more done, and I gave you some benefits. So I I try to sell it in a way to the ops chief where it it's hard for them to say no. They'll be really proudful and s and stuck in a crazy culture if they're like, nope, we're gonna use them as engines or or We're we're not gonna split them, which is which is crazy to me. And you can split a three a three firefighter truck too. It's two it's it's two and one and and the outside firefighter does everything but goes to the roof by himself or jumps in a window by himself Ish, right? Right, right. Ish. But But anyway, go ahead No no no no I don't want to cut you off. Corley: Go ahead. I want to I got I got something I want to get to though because I haven't touched on it yet, which is What what is your your Division Chief of Operations and Training?

Paul Capo: Boom. Corley: Did I get it right? He did. Okay, okay. Division Chief of Operations and Training. But but you're at Estes Park now. You you had a career and you retired and then you and and you you are you are you know still in your career but a lot going on in Estes Park There is. Like like like you told me this before we went live and I said, can I bring this up? And you said yes, absolutely. So go ahead. I want to hear it. Paul Capo: yeah, so April first, which is like ten days, right? And it's not an April Fool's joke No, oh no, no. Okay, I want to be clear. Actually, I think first day on the books is the 26th of March. Okay. Yeah, we have we hired a new fire chief and the new fire chief's Rick Laskey. So Ricklaski's coming up to Estes Park. And I do I do want you to know to go back real quick, Esther. Okay, small smaller fire department has got a true truck. It's got a true truck, no hose, no pump, no, no water, and it's six positions and the whole deal. But we can go to Rick Laskin now. Go ahead

Corley: That you you told me that like like five minutes before we went live and I was like I did the record scratch like like what'd you say? Paw Capo Division Chief of Operations and Training Pauly Capo and then Rick Lasky, Pride and Ownership, coming in, said yeah, I guess I'll be your fire chief. So yeah, basically everybody's like, What did you just Jake Dill said, what did you just say? That's awesome. Congratulations. Preston Lyons said, What? Scott Badekin said Lasky for the win. Preston says, does Estes take laterals? Is it Estes or Estes? Both. Paul Capo: I say Estes, but I'm not But you're a transplant, like I would be. Though people say it both ways. Corley: Okay, fair enough. I just don't wanna I didn't want to be mispronouncing it the whole time, but I got I got the cav I got the pass from the division chief. Does Estus take laterals? What a win. No, is that not crazy? That's awesome, man. I I can't wait. Dude, I'm s I'm so yeah, that's freaking awesome. Which takes me to one of my favorite parts of the show. Which is books or books that you think firefighters should be reading. Oh well. Does not have to be a firefighter book. It can be any book in the world, but go for it. Good because

Paul Capo: The first book I say, yeah, we all should read is the Bible. Corley: I was gonna say you have AM plus D G on your on your t-shirt. So I'm guessing it was gonna be the Bible. Paul Capo: I got I got a few. yeah, definitely the Bible, but the Bible and And not not sucking up to my new chief, but I was reading Pride and Ownership articles before there was a book in Fire Engineering magazine and And then when the the the book came, I remember talking to Chief Lasky on second floor of Hampton in and saying, Chief, you you gotta compile these things. He's like books are already coming out. So pride and ownership just totally So that oh Tommy Brennan speaking of fire in your magazine, Tommy Brennan's random thoughts. Random thoughts. Yeah man I love tangible quick hits and their compilation of all his back pages. all right, switch in. I like Atomic Habits. You ever read Atomics? Corley: Yeah, though I usually rattle off his name. It's not coil. It's I like Yeah. Jake Clear? Is it clear? Yeah, anyway, sorry, go ahead. Paul Capo: how to what is it how to touch friends and influence people by Carnegie? Yes, Dale Carnegie. Absolutely, man. That's a good one. That's a good one. It being just book on humility.

Corley: Dude, it stood the test of time, without a doubt. It's been around for like a hundred years almost. Yeah. No, without a doubt. And I'll tell you this, private ownership absolutely is one of the reasons Firehouse Vigilance exists. It's one of the catalyst books that I read early and and it was like that that started the yeah. Paul Capo: Awesome. Corley: Boom. Yeah, man, my wife said, I love S's. Beautiful there. One day I'll get Corley up to visit. Please do. There you go. Please do. No, I love it. Which takes us Two one of my favorite parts of the show. This is the five questions for firefighters. It's been around for a long time, almost five years. That's crazy to me to think that it's been around that long. But it has. And currently we're in version three. This is the third iteration, but it's version 3. 3 because I keep tweaking the questions. Basically, there are no right or wrong answers. They are just your opinions, and then the points are passed out By me with the help of the audience. So my question for you, Paul, Pauly Capo, are you ready for the Five Questions for Firefighters version 3.

Paul Capo: 3? I'm ready. Corley: Alright, let me pull up this right thing so I make sure I'm in the right place to to throw the timer up at the appropriate time, etc. I miss Sam. Sam usually makes this run really smooth. And so, long story short, here we go. What is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career? Paul Capo: Ooh, carried through. Okay. I would say this is great advice too. I'll give all this the junior firefighters, but seeking out mentors has carried me through My fire service career. yeah, without a doubt. And there's been there's been many. There's a couple core ones that really spoke into my life in and out of the firehouse. To this day, literally to this day, today. But yeah, constantly do that. Stand on the shoulders of giants and you can learn so much from experience and etc. Yep. Well I love it. Now Corley: Paul, do you feel like it was something you actively did or did you accidentally do it? Oh was it a combo? Good. Paul Capo: I I I guess I was It went in reverse on the first one. So I was a young kid and I got assigned to the first station station 49 and a senior man there. He he drove the heavy named Jim Carino, mentor of mine. He After I earned his trust, he took me under his wing. So I didn't seek him out. He kind of seeked me a little bit. And there was a couple instances that I did, whether it be Sunday and people are sleeping on the recliner and I was out in the bay I I grab tools off the engine or the truck and I'd bring it in in the firehouse and say, what does this do? And he's like things are racking up and he's like Yeah, you're asking that? Like no one asks that, you know. So and then he took me under his wing and and started teaching me everything he knows. And I s I Get I saw the value inadvertently of a mentor. So I didn't know I wasn't I didn't know about it. Then once he modeled that behavior, took me under his wing, when I got promoted to driver and I went to B shift Brian Schombord and I seeked him. Sam Willie seeked himself district chief. So now I started seeking people and they started talking in and And I earned their trust and and they started talking into my life.

Paul Capo: So it started me getting drugged through the mud on it, and then I started seeking it out. And I still do it to this day in all aspects of my life. Corley: I love it, man. I absolutely love it. There you go. Easy. Robert Ramirez says I'm taking the over on max points. We'll see. But I'm I yeah. We'll see. Andrew Frederick said hot all caps. Sorry, Frederick. Andrew Fedorka. Let me get it right. Caleb Alexander said max points can't be great without great folks that have been there before us. Greg Van Ham said Max points mentors are the unsung heroes on our departments. Matt Cokewell said, so good, Paula, you have personally changed my life. I love you. Thanks for being my mentor, but more importantly, a friend. So there you go. No, I absolutely love it. Easy. Easy max points. Easy over on number one so far. We'll see how it goes. Number two, I love this question. It's Job Town. It's time. Paul Capo: Job Town. Corley: You're in route. You're responding. You gotta think of the scene from backdraft. He's slapping that cassette into that tape deck. What song are you playing in route? No pressure.

Paul Capo: Alright. No, I got I I think I got one. it's not something I normally listen to, but we're going to the job, smoke showing, right? Right. You got your buddies with you. I'd have to go something crazy like Like rage against the machine, like killing in the name of I would say killing in the name of the consistent of it down or corn, but let's go with rage. Corley: Yeah. Alright, all right, I like it. I like it I don't know if killing in the name of has been I know I know we've had some rage before. And there is a playlist that's out there, just so you know. There's a playlist with all the answers accumulated. So it it exists and yours will be added. So thank you for easy. Rage will get an easy max points from me. Number three What is your favorite fire service tradition? And I have to caveat this by saying you are not allowed to say the kitchen table. Yeah, of course. That's my favorite. It's a given. Oh man, I don't yeah. So I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna cut your legs out, but at the same time All right.

Paul Capo: well okay. I would have to say and I don't See if we can dial this in and because tradition, man, there's so many ways. I would I would I would I would I'll try to answer the kitchen table without saying the kitchen table, okay, Correct? yes I love the tradition that we have in the fire service of the extended family that we have, like the brothers and sisters. anywhere like Lasky says you know you see a Maltese cross on someone's shirt you know you have a friend in the room no matter where you're at. I'll just give you a quick a couple quick examples to support that. I got a phone call at my desk in Esther's Park I pick up the phone and this guy introduces himself and he says I'm a battalion chief in Baltimore. I said, all right, what's up? He goes, my son's moving to Astes Park. He's a he's a a writer for the local magazine. You know any houses? And I'm like, yeah, not a problem. I go, how'd you know me? He goes, I don't know you. He goes, I go, what are you doing? He goes I'm calling a fireman. I'm a fireman. I'm calling another firefighter. I know you'd make it work. I got to get an apartment. I met him. The father came in. We had a beer. It it it is what it is what it is. I can call I can't tell you how many people right now Matt Copel is on the line, but plenty others, plenty others call 'em right now and they can be where I'm at right now and they won't ask. The question only only answers like, who's driving? So it doesn't matter where you're at. Now, so the extended family, the brothers and sisters, no matter where you're at. my wish is that We could do that in the firehouse amongst the departments. Oh wow. If B shift and A shift in the same department can do that. Man, that'll be beautiful because when you see those people on an airport and you see them, man, it it's forever love. But so but anyway, I that's I love that tradition.

Corley: Way to bring it home, Polly. Way to bring it home. Paul Capo: But because a guy that sells insurance, don't call another guy that sells insurance in another place and says, hey, my son's moving to you. Right. No, man. No, just just us. Corley: Dude, I love I love I love the answer, period. 'Cause you are you are spot on. And and A, you brought in Lasky and and yeah, one hundred percent. And then but to say why don't we do it at our own departments man, that that crushes it. That crushes it. that's so true. Absolute max points. That makes it three for three. Here we go. Number four. This is the one I gotta work some magic here as I do technology. I gotta throw I I gotta put a clock up here on you. But four people you get to pick four people to put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service Four and only four. You get one minute and go. Paul Capo: Joe Angelini Sr. 63 years old still riding back step. Love it. Tom Brennan, Captain Brennan, 111 truck, etc. And if it's my Mount Rushmore, I'm adding my my two my mentors. I'm adding a lot of people don't know their names, but I'm adding Jim Carino and Brian Schomborn. Done. Boom. At 36 seconds.

Corley: I'll hit pause so I can get it right. But 30 What does that make it 24 seconds? Done? I don't know if it's the record, but it's damn it's in the it's in the it's in the discussion. So there you go. easy, easy, easy. And I love the mixture of legacy, giant fire service, the big picture, all the way down to the people that impacted you. Man, I absolutely love that. Paul Capo: And I see why you gave a time because and a number because I can't snow and go with names like crazy. Corley: The first few times it was it was like fifteen minutes of people explaining about how somebody impacted their career. And it was it was good, but This was so much better. It really does work. Good. Finally, D question. It is the question that's been around since the beginning, and it will never go away if I have anything to say about it. It is heavy fire. Searchable space. I know you were truck 45 guy, but I'm anxious to hear your answer. Like heavy fire, searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on the VES? Paul Capo: Well, without a big circle answer, I would I would say V I'll say V E S and go in and save someone, but I would also love to say the nozzle because that's pretty exciting as well. But VES is my answer. VES is the answer. There you go.

Corley: And that officially makes it. Where are we at? 237 scraps in the books with absolute max points. Five for five crushed. With arguably, arguably the fastest, I'm not sure what the fastest is, the the audience may be able to let you know. Here we go. Love hearing mentors make it personal from Andrew Vidorka. There it is. If you can't truck, you can't writ. Great scrap. Thank you. My brother, thank you for sharing your evening with me. I appreciate it. Thank you all. That was great. If someone wants to get a hold of you, what is the best way to do so? How can they go about getting a hold of you? Paul Capo: Yeah, you could When things go bad ink, so if you go on when things go bad search it, my contacts on there it's when things go bad at hotmail dot com But yeah website you can you can get it. Perfect. phone numbers on there too, of course Corley: Excellent. Everybody else go to firehousevigilance. com. Vigilantes, go join. Five bucks a month. You can sign up for a year. I'll be posting the link for the scrap after party Paul has agreed to come on and be roasted, so he's gonna be there. We're gonna roast him, which we never do, but it's not the point. we are a group of like-minded souls, man. That's what it is. It's like-minded souls. You are never alone Go become a vigilante. Next week, it is Robert James, Capital Fire Training. Man, I'm excited for that one. And then one of the most requested people that I have not had on the scrap yet. It's been a while coming, but it is Candace Ashby. She is coming on. We are gonna have a phenomenal conversation. So, Capo. James Ashby. Boom boom boom. The scraps continue in killer fashion. Thank you, Paul Capel, for being such a phenomenal guest.

Paul Capo: Thank you. Corley: Vigilantes, if you're gonna be part of the scrap after party, look for the link in the private group. Sam should post it, I believe. I'm hoping. If not, I'll I'll figure it out. Just be patient. All that being said, audience, I love you. Thank you for being here tonight. What an un man, the numbers were unbelievable. The questions were unbelievable. You make the scrap magical. The scrap would not exist without you So thank you for tuning in live. Thank you for sharing your evenings with me and Paul. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. Everybody, stay safe out there.