Weekly Scrap #330 - Dave Quick, The Hose Nerd

Corley: I get asked all the time, what is a vigilante? What does it mean to be a vigilante? And so to explain that, I'm just gonna kind of explain where the vigilantes came from. When I started the group, I honestly thought there was gonna be like 10 or 20 people who really liked the scrap. That would want to be a part of the behind the scenes, helping pick out the guests and make the questions and things. And I never dreamed that the vigilantes would grow into what it has grown into. Over 700 like-minded souls. If you're a vigilante, you are never alone. We have members from across the country. We have members from across the globe. And it's just amazing what it's become. If you're in there, then you get to be in the Discord, and the Discord is where we do all of our dis Discussions and people go live and they talk and they ask questions and we have a channel for bitching and moaning for presenting classes. It's just it's amazing the fellowship that is involved in being a vigilante. And it's not just that, there's so many other benefits You get access to the Vigilante only swag shop. You get the 15% discount on all merch from Firehouse Vigilance. You get the after parties. You get the Vigilante get togethers when we're all at the same place and we get together and we raise a glass and do a toast and have the vigilante creed. You get the vigilante coin when you hit your one year anniversary with your number. The fireaways, the forums, the archives, all the quarterly projects that are coming that that you get to be a part of and get to be behind the scenes on, it's grown into something bigger than I ever imagined And I want people to know about, I want people to be a part of if you're not a vigilante, why not? I don't know, I don't know how how big it could be. I don't know. I mean the vigilantes are are where the work is at. They're the ones who are getting stuff done and it's phenomenal to be a part of it. I wanted to get on here and explain where it started, how it how it came to be, and ask you if you're not a vigilante, why not?

Corley: It go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. That's where you sign up. It is five dollars a month. I mean it's You can't even get a cup of coffee for that anymore. Five bucks a month, and you get to be a part of this unbelievable group. Go to patreon. com, sign up, become a vigilante, and I will see you on the Discord. Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance. It is weekly scrap number 330. My guest tonight is Dave Quigg. He is 31-year veteran of the fire service and currently serves as a lieutenant with the City of Manchester, New Hampshire Fire Department. He is a lead instructor in the Department's Recruit School and also a senior staff instructor at the State Fire Academy. He's a member of NFPA 1960, UL 19 slash 219, where they set the standard for hose and where he represents firefighters. He is also a technical panel member of the current ULFSRI. Here we go. Fire dynamics and firefighter tactics and multi-story residential structures. I don't know why they have the longest name for studies ever. You want to talk about being involved? this man is involved. He gets involved. Dave is the owner of 603 Fire Service Consulting and Training. His company has consulted with numerous fire hose manufacturers. and helped fire departments across North America design fire attack packages. Dave also writes lectures, provides hands-on training, especially in the areas of engine company operations. Dude. Is there anything that you don't do? Welcome my brother, Dave Quick, to the scrap for episode number 330.

Dave Quigg: Man, thanks, Corley. That was awesome. appreciate the invite and the nice words. Corley: Awesome, man. No, I'm looking forward to this. There's so many, so many topics that I want to get to, and we'll see how many we get to, and the audience will help us get to them all, I'm sure. Is there anything in the intro that I screwed up or anything you'd like to add? Anything to put okay Nope, sounds great. Then I will do the sponsors, get those done to pay the bills, and then we will get to scrapping. Here we go. Affordable Drill Towers on a mission to bring you cost-effective and versatile training props like the Affordable Bellout Prop, which allows you to participate and practice in window bailouts, ladder bailouts, and ladder high point rescues. They also offer the affordable standpipe prop, which you can roll into the classroom for standpipe theory and then roll it into the parking lot and pump realistic flows and pressures. And of course, their mainstay, the affordable drill tower. It comes in several configurations and standard with the standpipe system. Choose from one or two sets of stairs, integrate it into your existing connex boxes or freestanding on a slab. All models, NFPA 1402 compliant and gain you ISO credit. The only thing that you can't do in an affordable drill tower is live fire training. Call Steve 844-55 Tower or drop an email to info at affordable drilltowers. com When it comes to building your perfect attack package, you can't just slap any nozzle on any hose and hope for the best. That's a recipe for failure. At Snap Tight Hose, they are not just trying to sell you hose. They are there to make sure you get the right hose paired with the right nozzle for your crew and conditions. Their team of experienced reps knows the stuff inside and out, and they're ready to help. No ego, no judgment, because knowledge is power. And at Snap Tight Hose, they bring both. Visit snaptighthose. com to connect with the rep and start building your ideal hose and nozzle package today. And finally, FirestationFurniture. com. They provide a complete line of quality furniture for your firehouse. Firefighter owned and operated. They understand the strain firefighters put on furniture and offer furniture that's built to last. Visit www. firestationfurniture. com for more information And with that being said, that being done, we are now ready to get to scrapping.

Corley: I'm going to pull up and look at YouTube here and see They've there's only been people logged in here for like the last 45 minutes waiting for this thing to get going. They're called the front row gang and they show up and they send questions. But there are a lot of rocker horns, not not longhorns, a lot a lot of rocker horns up there A lot of LFGs, a lot of let's goes, a lot of here we goes. There's a lot of fire emojis. So they're psyched and they're sending their questions. Sam is in the house and he is collecting the questions. So Dave, let's get to it This is a fun talk. This is a, I don't know if fun is the right word, but this is a topic I'm excited to talk about. And you kind of bring a different perspective to it. So let's get right to it. NFPA. The NFP, and I'll just I'll just put out those four letters and then let you let you go where you want to go. Dave Quigg: I'm a big supporter and I think there's a lot of misinformation. out there and I'd like to I guess talk about it a little bit. I see a lot of people that are on social media, I see a lot of stickers out there that talk about abolishing the NFPA. As someone that sat on a standard for the last 10 years, I think it's a a r I I actually do a really good job overall. I think there's a lot of really good committees out there that are working. And I hear all the time that it's driven by manufacturers, they're trying to line their pockets, that they are the ones setting the standard. But the reality is that there's no one user group on the on the committees that can have more representation than anyone else. So if there's say five manufacturers that sit on the hose committee, there have to be five firefighters or five end users also to match those five manufacturers and that's the you that's the group that I represent and those are firefighters that volunteer they pay their own way or maybe their department sends them but there's no one that's funding them they're doing it for the right reasons to try to make it better And we have this opportunity as a fire service to stack the committee over top of other manufacturers on top of the manufacturers as well, because there's also a category called enforcer.

Dave Quigg: And enforcers are fire department officers that are charged with making sure that when they purchase equipment equipment that they are that are they're following the NFPA. And the NFPA enforcer category is reimbursed 90% of the travel by the NFPA. So if you look at it that way, if you have five really good enforcers, you have five really good users, we now have double the amount of folks that are firefighters as compared to manufacturers. On top of that, there's a category called special expert, which is, I guess, kind of a free-for-all. So on our host committee, Sean Gray, who was on Your show from Cobb County and stop believing, start knowing. He's the special expert that's on our committee, one of them. So if you start looking at there, right off the bat, we could have 15 firefighters that are on this committee and driving initiatives forward And with that being said, I'll wrap it up with the fact that at the end of the day we can come up with any standards, but someone also has to make and manufacture them. So The manufacturers do bring a lot of value because they tell you what they can and can't do. They're the may they're they've got engineers, they understand the processes and A lot of the manufacturers, and maybe I'm I'm I'm biased because we have such good manufacturers on the hose and nozzle side, but they're the ones that spent their own money trying to help us to develop the new heat testing standard that happened after Back Bay So I guess yeah, I'm trusting, yeah, I can be naive. And I'm sure that there are committees out there that are driven by the manufacturers a little bit more. Maybe we don't have the right people that are on those committees from the fire service, but if folks were to get involved, we do have the ability to drive it to where we want to go to. So It's been a great experience. The network's been good. I've learned a ton. So if anyone out there is interested, go find your favorite standard. Go find the one that matters most to you and see if they're accepting applications and need people to balance out to committee in those different standards and and get involved

Corley: Oh, I love that. Now, in your experience, because you've been doing it, you said over 10 years now or long ago? Dave Quigg: Yeah. Yeah, over 10 years. Yeah. Corley: And so in your experience Has it played out the way like I mean obviously you saying you know we can stack we can stack them has that the experience you've had with it where you actually what I'm saying is what does your opinion matter when you're in those committees and and putting in the information Dave Quigg: It definitely matters. So it matters too from the folks that are out there listening right now. Every five years there's a new stand the standard is updated and edited. And Firefighters have the ability to submit public comment to say, hey, this is what I think you should look at. And the committee has to address every one of those and decide what they're going to do with it and then give a justification as to why they're not exploring it or why they are going to explore it and move it through to see if it's going to change. we've had a really a lot of really great committees and there were times like in the beginning I went in and I brought up some things. I jumped on Dennis's early bandwagon of char I'm sorry, uncharged ID shouldn't be any larger than one sixteenth the nominal size. And I was gonna die on that hill until folks from like LA and New York are like, I need a bigger hose line because I have six story walk-ups And I'm stretching, you know, 500 feet. I need bigger hose because I need to reduce the friction loss. And I was like, oh. So the committee's been good from an educational standpoint to get a better idea as to what fire departments across the country need. And I think that's sort of the best part is sometimes you have to remove yourself just from your little area of the country and where you operate. And it broadens to realize that, you know, as we talk about firefighting is local and those standards have to meet that portion of it as well. So yeah, again, maybe I've been fortunate to be on such a great committee with a lot of really engaged firefighters that are home runs, but I think that there's probably more of those out there than aren't.

Corley: No, no, and and like you said, Your your version also you're involved with hose and nozzles and the and the hose manufacturers seem to be very in tune with with trying to To me, outside looking in, they seem to be want to make the the innovations. They want to they want to provide the best tool, you know, and and I'm not sure that's the case. the perception is not the case with like other branches of or other other departments of that that doesn't the perception. I'm just saying the perception Dave Quigg: You know what I think happens and again I only know some of the standards and some of the manufacturers. Corley: Sure. Dave Quigg: The manufacturers want to make what we want because they want to make money. They want to sell things. And sometimes what I found happens is they just don't know who to listen to. So some of the products that are coming out and some of the things that are being driven. are by very small niches within the fire service and not the entire whole. So they developed these things because someone brought it to them. Very few, I would say, of the manufacturers are really innovating all of these brand new things on their own, they're listening to firefighters. So maybe the firefighters that have their ear aren't the right people, but at the end of the day, they want to make something that's going to be productive and something that's going to be effective for us. So I don't think they're just out there trying to make things just to make things.

Corley: The other thing is is that I and you you kind of touched on it already is is the fact that the NFPA it's the national you know it's it's a it's a national standard and firefighting is local. Is it almost too big of a bite to take to try to create a standard or is it is it where we need to start? I mean what what's your thoughts on on creating a national standard when there's so many silos, so many departments, so many variances throughout. And I'm all for like Aaron Fields, one of my favorite people, we need a jargon. You know, we need to standardize our jargon. And that alone is a nightmare But go ahead. What's your thoughts on that? Dave Quigg: Yeah, I think you do. I think it needs to be as generically specific as you can make it. So, you know, what we're learning in New Hampshire is we're redoing our Fire One curriculum is we have a new curriculum coordinator and he's very in tuned as to how to read the standard to see what it says. If you notice to get your Fire 1 certification, it just says that you have to advance inch and three larger than inch and a half hose and at least two and a half inch hose. It doesn't give you the specific way to deploy the hose, and that's on purpose. So they found what you need to do as a firefighter, and they left it generic enough so that the city of Manchester, New Hampshire, if they want to run their own Fire One program, can still meet the standard, but make it to where Manchester hose loads and attack packages and Alley raises for ladders because we have tight quarters is is a part of the standard versus in more Where you know what, you have completely different building stock, you're gonna use something completely different, but you're still meeting what has to happen as a firefighter. So yeah, I think having some kind of basis to start with is good, but again, leaving it just Leaving it generic enough so that people can adapt their own locality to it is is the way to go.

Corley: And I love the way you said generically specific. Because I think that does capture what needs to happen. So I do like that. What about the is it just a what do you call it? Just a move? A mood, a bad perception, like not for practical application. I've been I've been accused of saying that before. Not for practical application, NFPA. Is there I'm trying to think of specific examples that I would point at, but most of the time it's just kind of a vibe that people put off. Is there is there any credence to it or is it just completely baseless? Dave Quigg: No, I'm sure well, I shouldn't say I'm sure I know for sure that there are standards in there that don't always make sense. And you know Sometimes I think that folks aren't critical enough even after the standard's written to go back and look and say, hey, why are we doing this and is there a better way? Because you can always remove it five years later. It doesn't have to live in that in that space forever. I think the other part that folks don't understand is that the NFPA is just a liaison that brings folks together. They don't write anything. They don't even have a voting member on any of the committees So they say, hey, we're going to write a standard on Firehose when it was first originated. And they said, let's get all these different user categories together. And let's get them into a room to write a standard on fire hose. So those people in the room wrote the standards, and then the NFPA goes and edits it as far as like wordsmithing, making sure that the periods are in the right place. They follow Robert's rule of order when they do things. There's a process and hey, it's got to be, you know, public for a certain number of days. This is how we do the voting. But they don't have anyone that votes on there. So you hear people say all the time, well, the NFPA is pushing this. No, the individual people that are on that committee are pushing it. The NFPA doesn't decide yes, you can you can bring this to the standard or not. it's all done by the committee members.

Corley: Perfect. No, I I love the answer. The I got questions coming at you from the audience on this topic. So I want to get to them while we're on this topic. And then we'll move on to we're getting to nerdier stuff and tactics and everything else. That's all right. Lots of questions. This one's coming from Stephen Wisely, 1802. This one's a little bit out even. I'll throw it at you because you're the SME here. Lots of questions, but number one: if a hose manufacturer claims a hose model, adheres to NFPA 1960-2024. Are there any assurances of charged internal hose diameter continuity in hose production year to year? So does that make sense or no? Dave Quigg: Yeah, it does make sense. the answer is no, there isn't, right? Fire hose and nozzles are one of the only safety pieces of equipment that doesn't have to be third-party reviewed or third-party listed So if you went and looked at your helmet, your gear, your air pack, and it's it's been looked at by either FM, it's been looked at by UL, fire hose is all self-certifying. So no, there is no one that's watching over them. So you're taking them at their word that each person is is manufacturing their product to the same standard from batch to batch. So Steven's I think 100% right in his in his thought process there that yeah you have to be careful.

Corley: Okay. No, no, absolutely. And then and then is it is that where reputation and quality really comes down to knowing your rep knowing who you're working with and trusting Yeah, basically knowing what you're working with and what you're buying. Dave Quigg: Yeah, I know like from talking to Dennis, you know, what he recommends when people buy hose after you've demoed it and and you get that first lot in. is for every loft that you get in, like save one piece from the original loft that you got to make sure that when the next piece comes through, that you go out, you do friction loss testing, you pack it and make sure that it seems to be the same quality. And then if it's not, try to work with the manufacturer to figure out why that's not the case. Corley: What change? Dave Quigg: I think that that's pretty good. Yeah, which change for me personally, I'm going to push in the next revision next year that fire hose be third party listed because I think it's super important. not only the the third party, so there's manufacturers, mostly the premium products are UL are listed by UL. And I represent us the end users on the UL committee as well. We're trying to align those two standards so that way it's a lot easier to make it so that not only are you getting a self-certified hose, but then the third party is adhering to the same the same quality and the same standards. so I think that that's super important that that we look at that moving forward. And I think things like ISO are important, not like the ISO that we're used to for insurance, but the quality control of the raw goods that are coming in because Even if you get the third-party listing, they're supposed to they're supposed to still use the same kind of recipe, but it doesn't mean that you're going to get all the same quality where the ISO is about the process and the raw goods So I think those together, and again, there's so many things out there. If you went and bought a new portable charging battery from a reputable place, it's going to have a UL certification. stamp on it. It's gone through all the testing, but if you go by fire hose, it doesn't have to have one of those, which just doesn't make sense to me anymore.

Corley: Right. No, no. Absolutely, now that you've explained it out. Now What will the third-party testing, what kind of what kind of impact does that have on end user cost? Dave Quigg: So I'm sure it will go up a little bit. The UL charges a certain amount of money per diameter, per model, per color. So it's a pretty big undertaking. But I think like anything else, yeah, they may initially go up to try to recoup some of that money. But after the things that we saw in the past with fire hose with, you know, deal lamination and and the heat and with back bay, you know, it is the one thing that we pull and and do every time. So I try then this is where when we're sitting in those committees I really try to put my fireman hat on and represent the end user and go, you know what, yeah, it might cost a little bit more, but at the end of the day, whatever that extra cost is of the hose to get something that's super quality. it's right, you you're hoping that that thing lasts and does what it's supposed to do, as opposed to someone getting burned and the medical costs and the overtime and all the other things that come with it And I don't know, when you look at how much hose is being produced every day, I don't think that, yeah, there's obviously a cost to it, but I don't think it's gonna raise it so significantly.

Corley: significantly that it's nothing's free nothing's free I just didn't know if it was if it if that was a major obstacle or hurdle you know but again Dave Quigg: And I think the other part of it is right. So now you have to put you have to look at when you're in these committee meetings, you also have to you have to put yourself in the shoes of everyone in there so you can understand at least the viewpoints that are coming in you know, if we were to get that passed through, well, you probably need to have some kind of a a grace period. So, you know, there is that sort of easing in, like, okay we'll give you five years or we'll give you to the next cycle. So now that cost can be you know deferred over five years. It gives it would give a third party the opportunity then to set aside the time and the manpower to do it. You couldn't just go have this be implemented next year and and think that it's gonna be good. So okay, this is what we want the end goal to be. We don't need to have it tomorrow, but we want to work towards it So yeah, you know what? Like we also need to look at the cost. We need to look at who's going to test it and how they can do it and put together a realistic approach to having it completed.

Corley: Now you referenced Back Bay, and that that was Beacon Street, Boston, yes? Yes. And and that's where the hose burnt through on the on the basement stair descend. What that that had a massive effect on getting a a heat stress test implemented into hose manufacturing? Dave Quigg: It did. So there is no Excuse me, there is no pass or fail, but as a committee, we spent almost five years working on a new test. So in the past. with heat testing there was always a conductive test which by the way hose burn through happens very regularly in the American fire service i would I would contend almost daily And when I talked to Tom Jenkins, who's leading up the new nearest in in reporting, I'm hoping in version 2. 0 that they'll start to have a some drop-down menus for equipment failures on the fire ground so we can start to track some of these things. But from from talking to folks at different conferences, you quickly find out that conductive insult happens very regularly on the fire ground. That's your embers, it's touching hot metals, it's going over thresholds, it's railings, all of those kind of things. But and the back bay forced us to look at radiant and radiant insults and things like flashover and the the testing that we put together was reporting, so at least firefighters had an idea of how long their hose would last, but more importantly, what the mode of failure would be. So if you did have a cata if you did have a hose burn through Were you going to have a catastrophic failure? Was your hose going to you know leak five gallons per minute? Was it going to be over 20 gallons per minute? And when we put that testing standard together, the pressures and the volumes that you see listed in there are based on real fire ground pressures and volumes and the nfpa wanted to get their revisions and get their standard out at the right cycle and we said no we're not ready to put this out we haven't we haven't like hit all the marks that we needed to and we're not going to rush it And we as a committee manufacturer joined with firefighters and we said, no, we're going to slip cycle, which is the process that allows you to put it off for a year.

Dave Quigg: And that's what we did. We said, we're not going to get forced into this because it's not right for the American Fire Service. And again, that's where I think that you can have really good committees that are doing really good work. And I would hate to see us abolish it, you know, especially for instances like that. Corley: Okay. No, and you make a compelling argument to actually get in and say, what do I like, what do I not like? And most importantly, and this is the most important takeaway for everybody listening, is Get involved because Dave is not sitting from the sideline saying, no, it's okay, it's okay. He's he's sitting on the committees making a difference, putting the time in, fighting for the things that he believes in, and making those standards So that's the main takeaway is if you don't like it, get involved because there's an avenue to do so. okay, I'm gonna shift away from the NFPA and move on to I like getting into some other stuff here. real quick, McGinn says, how do you talk your chief into not buying the cheapest hose? Go. Dave Quigg: That's a great question. I figured I'd throw you a nice off, Boss. No, I I've I've I've obviously worked with a lot of folks on this. I think that you have to show the value. I think that when it comes to designing it, real quick, there's three things you gotta look at. You look at it hydraulically Prove to them why the hose that you're using right now doesn't work necessarily hydraulically and then go to your objective pieces. So do some king testing and show them, hey man, like This economy hose is kinking all over the place and we're not getting the flow. Look at how bad the stream is. Would you want to go in with this? look at packability, all those different things, and just use some of the numbers and go out and show them. That's that's what I found to to to be beneficial for people and they've been able to make some positive change.

Corley: Right on. Right on. I did say no more NFA, but I like this one real quick, which was from the Quattro Kile. Quattro Kile. I think it's Quattro. The Quattro Kile. Dave, do you think the hose industry And then in parentheses he says, or with NFPA influence, is going to move toward Kevlar style jackets. I got to spend some time and it was fantastic. Dave Quigg: I think that the hose industry is going to eventually move to more heat-resistant hose. I don't know if it's going to be Kevlar. I know there's a manufacturer right now that's making a hose that has that kind of blend that makes it very heat resistant. But I think over time as we start to have a better reporting system on how often these kind of burn throughs are happening. I think that you'll see more innovation. I don't know if it's going to be coating. I don't know if it'll be Kevlar, if it'll be some other type of air mid-fiber. But I, yeah, I do believe that the fire service will eventually move towards more heat resistant and hose and the analogy that a good friend of mine used was there was a time that fire departments didn't want to go to bunker gear because it was expensive but after we burned up enough firemen And got people hurt, we realized, oh no, we need to have this. I think you'll eventually see it with fire hose as well.

Corley: No, I get and then like there was a time we used buckets And and eventually we moved to hose. And no, that was not actually the question I was after. I actually grabbed the wrong one, but I do like the answer and I do like the question. So thank you for it. Taylor Shepard, this is the one I wanted to get to on NFPA. Speaking of NFPA, Dave, I love you. But is there any chance the NFPA lessens its requirements for leather helmet compliance? There are those who feel that it's a bit overkill. And he said, me Dave Quigg: what's up Taylor? It's nice to hear from you. Man, we had a great demo down on his job about a year ago. I was just thinking about that at Christmas time. It was awesome. He's a home run, man. That whole job down there is great. I'm gonna leave that for the helmet folks. You can reach out to Ragtop or Capital or Rekindle lids on that. I don't know enough about it. I wear a plastic lid I'm sure that's gonna get me beat up in the after party tonight, but so I don't know anything about helmets. I'll pass on that question, Taylor Tari

Corley: Logan Anderson, now we're getting into this, now we're getting more into the just applic application. What is your person Logan Anderson 6200 says, what is your personal breakover point to abandon a standpipe stretch in favor of a vertical or rope stretch. Distance, standpipe conditions, building conditions, etc. What's your what's your checkbox? Dave Quigg: Oh boy. speed and ease of getting water on the fire. So that's a really great question, man. And I'm down here in Texas doing class with Brumley And he was talking about it. We're doing the his multi-family framework class, which is great. And he touches on it. I think if you I'm gonna segue into something else. I don't know if we had it on there, Corley, or not, but The American Fire Service, I think, has a very limited understanding of standpipe systems, and the information that's out there is really good information. But that information is really based in larger cities. And the guys that are teaching it are good friends of mine and they're all home runs. The information in the information spot on. However, these new buildings that we're seeing across the country, these six-store up to six-story, the type five over type ones, generally have manual wet standpipe systems in them. So it any of the water that's in the system is designed for the automatic sprinklers. And those automatic sprinklers are there in the 13R system just to get you out of the building. So people walk in and they see the the steel piping and the stairwells, they see the hose connection, the angle valves like, all right, cool. I'm like, I'm gonna use this I'm going to use this and I'm going to be all set to go. And they they read the stuff in the publications and online. They're like, oh, it's post 93. It's 100 PSI at the top two outlets, 250 But it's just not the case. What folks are getting in those systems are manual wet systems, and they are hydraulically calculated and they're plumbed. so that you can get 100 psi at the two top outlets and you can get the 250 gallons per minute, but it's via the fire department feeding the fire department connection. It doesn't have to be automatic from either a pump or from the municipal system. The code also allows for a fire pump to be installed on that building that's just for the sprinkler system.

Dave Quigg: and not for the standpipe. So you can actually have like a 250 gallon per minute fire pump that's only there for the sprinklers. So when you break it down, what's my breakover point? My question is always how quickly can you stretch a 400 foot line or do a coupling drop or something with the rope? versus what's your staffing look like to hit a hydrant, hit the FTC. If it does have a pump, get somebody down to the pump to make sure it's you know not for the stamp pipe. And if it is not for the stamp pipe, what's it running at? So you can open the clapper valve and supply the system and then get upstairs to get everything hooked up and get to the fire compartment. And for the majority of the American Fire Service, these alternate stretches are just faster and easier to get water on the fire. And as much as I love the standpipe stuff, it's usually like the third option that I'm looking at if I'm looking on the inside for going vertical in a building. Corley: Now, Dave, would you say pre-plan more or size up, like when you make that decision?

Dave Quigg: pre-plan more, but knowing just what the codes are when I see these going up. The exception is that it's an automatic system, not the rule. So and I think it's a pretty e I think it's a pretty universal thought process that if you see them, you should just expect that they're gonna be manual. Corley: Gotcha No, I love it. What let me see more questions, more questions. Jeremy Humphrey, hump Humphrey. I get it right. I will always butcher it. But with the significant costs associated with transitioning to new hose and nozzle systems, what guidance would you offer to a department that is considering making this change? So this one ties to the cheap hose question. Dave Quigg: sure. I think that what you do is you look at doing it in incremental pieces. pieces and you say, you know what, this year we only have money for one nozzle and 200 feet of hose. That's great. Put it on that frontline engine that's going out the door and make that your number one piece that's going to go put the fire out or a tumble. to put the fire out. And if you can do two, do two. The one thing I don't recommend is I a lot of folks want to just take one premium length of hose and put it, which would also would equate to like a low pressure hose, something you're going to use a 50 psi nozzle on. And they want to just put that as the nozzle section only because they're like, well, at least I'll get the benefits of having, you know, a g a low pressure nozzle. Which I get. The other the real problem is that the other three lengths behind it if they're designed for high pressure and 100 psi are still going to kink as you move through there. You know, we have to look at the entire length of that stretch, not just that last section. So I'm always a fan of save your money do one bed at a time and if it takes you five years to do it that's okay. Again, we don't need to have everything today like most things in in society, let's be patient and and and take the time to get what we really need you know as we can do so.

Corley: But I want it now Dave. I want it now. I can have it now on TikTok. Why can't I have it now? Dave Quigg: Yep Corley: All right. I'm looking, I'm looking here. There's a lot of NFPA type style questions, but I feel like with the we're gonna get back to I like this one here. What is your opinion of ultra high pressure? Let's go European. Ultra high pressure, what's your opinion? Dave Quigg: I don't know enough about it. I know that their firefighting tactics over there require it because of, you know, the type of gas Gas cool, not gas, yeah, gas cooling that they do, right? Corley: The little short bursts and things like that. Dave Quigg: They're not surface cooling like we are here. So I don't know enough about that to answer that question. I'm sorry. Corley: It goes into really tiny droplets at that point, and that's what I know about it. And it is gas cooling. and and and again, they are very good at what they do with it. So I don't wanna it it's foreign to me, do not get me wrong, especially Big drops, surface cooling, contract everything, you know, make it turn it into thermic. But all right, coming back to your topics, Dave. We're getting back to it. Let's go to the engine boss. And I love this, the difficult transition from back step firefighter to engine boss. Talk to me.

Dave Quigg: Yeah, so my fire department doesn't have a traditional like officer program. So everything you get, you get you take the test and when I took when I took the promotional exam seven years ago, I took I had to read fire officer one, Brandigan's construction, strategy and tactics on like transitional attack. And boy, I should know you. Oh, Bunny the Boss. And then we had to read our ops manual and admin manual. And when I got promoted, they said, here you go. Like my dad came and pinned me. I'm a fifth generation fireman. That was Super cool. One of the coolest. Corley: Fifth generation. Dave Quigg: Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. I've got a trumpet from my great-great-grandfather in my office. It's from 1857. He retired as the chief of the the Kingston New York Fire Department. And it's the only piece of fire memorabilia I have. It's super cool to have. It's been passed down through the generations. Corley: So that's hard to that's hard to put anything next to a f you know a a a trumpet from 1850 Yeah. Dave Quigg: It's super cool, man. It's super cool. So anyway, so about a month into being promoted, I caught a commercial job and I made some really poor decisions, really bad situational awareness. and the roof came down while we were in there. And the one and only thing I did well that day is I made sure everybody was out in front of me as it was coming. down but it had trusses the gusted plates were dropping and the i all I could fixate on was the fact that the two and a half was overpumped and the guy couldn't open the nozzle to get water where it needed to be Just so it had gotten ventored a little bit and so you know now I'm going through the phases and you know I'm starting to get better at being a company officer. And fast forward to about a year and a half ago, and one of my guys, John Lopez, was in the promotional process. And what we do is we let the guys sit up front and you kind of like guide them through it a little bit. teach him how to do reports and outside of that that's all that they get so it's it's really up to us and he was riding up front and I thought he was terrible I thought his size ups were bad I thought that his direction or lack thereof was terrible I would be condescending in the rig.

Dave Quigg: Like I was it wasn't professional at all. And I I don't fancy myself to be that way, but that's how I was And my senior man who I value the most, Stevie Goopel, brought me in the office. He's like, you really think that's the right time? So for folks out there that are listening, the senior man to me is most valuable because he keeps me in my lane He'll say to me, David, he's what we were talking earlier on. He's one of the only guys in my life that calls me by my full name. He'll say, David, stay in your lane. And that's when I know that he's taking care of me as the officer, that it's his role to go do something that needs to be done, not to get involved in it. And we need that. As a company officer, you need that. So I digress. So John's up front and I started to realize that he wasn't doing well because why should he be doing well? It didn't give him any of like the knowledge to be a company officer. So his size ups weren't great, but you know when he was riding in the back seat He didn't have to listen to what my size ups were. He couldn't hear what they were. It was me on the radio. And when I was transmitting things to command, he didn't know that I was saying water on the fire, visible fire knockdown, because he was putting the fire out he didn't have to worry about, you know, telling the chauffeur what to do. And all of those things that you do as an engine boss leading the first line, he didn't know to call for hydraulic, you know, to call for outside ventilation. We're very heavy topside and and backside ventilation department and I was like holy shit so basically what I did is I had written all of these handwritten like notes and I I said you know what I need to develop an outline for him of the things that he's responsible for when he's supervising that line. It's not it's not leadership, it's not strategy and tactics, but here are all the things you need to do. And I think that the fire service doesn't do a good job of preparing folks to do what the majority of company officers are going to do.

Dave Quigg: Lead an engine company with the first hand line at a residential fire. And that transition from back step to the front seat is just a completely different mindset. You know, I understand even as a working boss You have to do certain things, but you're still responsible to be with the proby or the inexperienced person who still needs directions. And I see things all the time on social media where people are like, if you're if you have a proby and you need a boss right there with them and you're not training them right I think that that's a load of bullshit because I've had a lot of probies that are really squared away on the training ground and they get into that environment and they do what probies do. They get tunnel vision because it's new to them. Just like I got tunnel vision when I went to my first fire, the company officer And I sucked. So I think that we as a fire service need to figure out a way to develop some programs. Like I've got so I basically I put together a couple of lectures for my own job that I've had the opportunity to bring to other places. just based on this topic because I felt like there was a gap that was missing. And I think we need to do a better job of preparing our company officers for that role. The one thing that every boss is going to do when they get promoted, lead the first handline.

Corley: Right on, man. I love that. And why and it seems to me that everybody has a story kind of like this. And I don't I'm I'm not to disqualify the originality or but it's I thought I knew what I was doing. I got in there, I got my ass kicked. I got my humble pie. And then I said, hold on, I got in the mirror. Someone helped me get in the mirror And and and you transition to this where you're at you're now building up other people. And I I just love, I mean, the the people that I've I can think of. I think you took Brumley, I think Brumley's story is similar to that in the and and getting his ass kicked on a hand line And Bonifield and Aaron Fields, all of them kind of have these same stories early on that said, hey, there's something not right here. I need to do something about this. And that's another thing that I love is that you just didn't say, hey, there's something all right here. You went and did something about it. So the talk to me about that, that, those, those lectures you put together.

Dave Quigg: So that's pretty much it. So I have like a shortened version that's kind of down and dirty. And then a larger version that's a little bit about group development. And when I went to my current assignment about four and a half years ago, I wasn't probably the guy that they wanted down there I made a couple of small changes that looking back on it, I probably didn't really need to make. I kind of fell into this mindset of what I had heard about the group from other people. And I always said I'd never be the guy that would do that. Corley: I'd always form my own opinion. Dave Quigg: And I didn't. And they had a little intervention with me. And what changed it, I think it was probably the first time I met you, I was down at Water on the Fire and Daryl Liggins did a class on on status quo bias and changing hose and nozzle packages. And then I sat there and listened to it, I realized that it also applies to humans that their boss that they had worked for for years had retired right so there's a feeling of loss me coming in and saying hey I want to do it this way they're thinking in their head well wait a minute you don't think I know what I'm doing like I'm a terrible fireman right Yeah, so I realized that it wasn't about equipment and that it's also humans as well. And we went through all of Tuckman's stages of group development, everything that Chief Thompson talks about with, you know, twelve to eighteen months of group groups forming and getting their feet wet and finally, you know, performing or at least norming is spot on, man. Like that's when we started to hit our groove after a couple things. So the shortened version is is about like leading the first line and the longer version bring some of this stuff in. I go a little bit more into the story with John and and thinking about him being in the front seat and how he was what he was unconsciously incompetent, that first like level of competence. And with over like five years in the front seat, everything I was doing was sort of on the verge of compet consciously competent versus unconsciously competent, just going through the motions because it's what I did and it worked and I wasn't even thinking about it anymore.

Dave Quigg: And then it really made me reflect back to, man, I was the same way he was five years ago. And to your point, I need to do something about it to try to help him out. And sort of saw that need. So that's kind of what the class is about. And now that my job's done a pretty good job. We're trying to, we're working through this. It's not a perfect system yet But we've been bringing our new bosses to our Proby school and having them lead them in their live fire days. And to try to get them the ability to make those radio transmissions and make some of those mistakes and figure out their system on the training ground. What we're trying to figure out though is obviously the probies still needs some real direction on fire attack and and the bosses need some direction on being bosses and the two together sometimes can be overwhelming from an instructor standpoint point. So it's not a perfect system, but it's better than what we were doing. And the bosses have had really good feedback on it. And I'm happy to see we're moving in that right direction. At some point we'll get it right.

Corley: And if you're no no no and it's hard because you've got it both people need skill acquisition. You know, they need the reps for skill acquisition, but at the same time, where do you focus? And do you have enough resources to focus on both? How long have you been doing that with bringing them down to the rookie? Dave Quigg: We've done it I guess almost three times now. the first time that we did it, we my guy one of my other guys was on the list and The list had just been established and I was like, hey man, we're gonna go burn. You want to take them in a couple times just to get some reps? Because I had just my other guy had just gotten promoted. So it was like sort of in that realm. So three three classes now that that we've done it. And what's kind of cool is they've been taking the newest bosses and we've had a lot of turnover like a lot of places with company officers. And some of the company officers that were like There's they may be like two years in rank but haven't had a lot of fire duty experience. Like, no, I want to go to this thing. So we even have good young bosses that are like jealous that they didn't get a chance to go to that other thing, which I I don't love that they don't get to do it, but I love that they want to do it.

Corley: Right, right. biggest lesson you've learned after three. Because three's a pretty good set of reps. three what I'm sorry. Dave Quigg: boy, so I would say that being human and being understanding are the biggest takeaways. and understanding how about this understanding that there's a level of suck that they're gonna be at that meets the suck expectation And I think anytime you get to I think anytime you get to a new position or do something different, there is a level of suck. You know, even with probies, they show up you know, you take them out to pump or whatever, and we have to do these quarterly evaluations. you know, Dan Boston on my job said that to me. He goes, Dave, he goes, I wrote met expectations Because the guy was at the level of suck that I thought he should be at for being, you know, two months on the job. I'm like, ah, that's pretty good, Dan. I'm gonna steal that one. Corley: No, and it's not that it's not saying that that sucking is acceptable. That's not what you mean, but you you Realistic expectations is if it's the first time they're doing it, they should suck. Yes.

Dave Quigg: Yes. And and really you should say, yeah, you know what, you're meeting the suck expectations. And in four weeks you hope that they're just a little bit better. And it's it's that progression getting back to it's not going to happen overnight. And if you think about that skill set of what it takes to hop on the rig as a new boss all the way through knockdown where you're gonna ventilate search and open up. Think about all the things that have to happen and all of that, like those those skills that you have to acquire. It's going to take months to be able to do that. Just getting in the front seat and figuring out which buttons you're going to push on the MDT, what radio channel to get to, and get yourself dressed. is a chore in itself, let alone trying to talk to the chauffeur about hydrant locations, companies coming from other directions, answering fire alarm, with their updates that they're giving you, right? Corley: So And all the while all the while doing all of those physical tasks that you're talking about. The task, but all the while your own psyche is telling you now sound good, sound like you know what you're doing, project with confidence, have good command presence. You know, everybody's everybody's judging me. Oh, I can't believe I said that on the fucking radio. You know, that kind of thing. You know And and and that's all going on at the same time.

Dave Quigg: It definitely is. So I think that's what I've taken away from working with with newer bosses is having realistic expectations. Focusing on the things that they really need to to focus on importantly, right? So it's Directing the hand line, making good transmissions when you're inside because the truck company, the rescue company, the chiefs, everyone is listening. And based on your transmissions, are going to operate or make decisions on their own. So, you know, maybe, you know, thinking about odds and evens side of the street or what the order of the box is maybe lower on the list when I start out with people because I need them to be more focused on, you know, water on the fire, visible fire knockdown, we got a victim, whatever those things are. Corley: Right, right. No, I do love the engine boss talk. I do love that. I want to catch that class at some point. Yes. I'm going to switch back over to here come some more audience scrap questions. A lot of hose questions coming out the hose murder. Fully involved wants to know what do you recommend for maximum length inch and three-quarter with 50 PSI nozzles?

Dave Quigg: Oh, all right. Well that that's dependent upon what the charge internal diameter is, which will lead to what flow are you at and what's the friction loss? So with modern fire hose, you can easily get 600 or more feet out of it, especially on the oversized stuff. If you're looking at A gladiator, you're looking at a Kraken EXO, you're looking at key combat ready, those are swelling. And then if you look at say you're flowing, I don't know, let's just say 160 gallons per minute Probably all of those hoses are somewhere around on average 20 pounds of loss per hundred. So if you think about that, you can go up 500 feet, that's 100 pounds of loss. You add 50 for the nozzle and a little bit for the plumbing, and you're still only at 170 Corley: Yeah. Dave Quigg: I hear people talk all the time about, man, I don't want my pump to do any kind of extra work, but they're designed to run to 250 PSI. So why we still adopt that, like I don't want my pump to work that hard, I don't get. And then the other one I don't get is, well, once I get over 150 psi, then I start losing the pump capacity Well, that's when you're a draft, not when you're being fed by something else or coming from your tank water. So when you put all those things together, modern fire hose really allows you to go out pretty far. so it's just it just comes down to flow and the hose that you're using.

Corley: Sorry that's not a phenomenal answer, but I love I love when I ask a subject matter expert and they just they crush the answer with ah that's bing bing bing boom done. Tanner Jones wants to know, as a hose man, do you prefer Preconnects or the Warwagon concept? Dave Quigg: Oh boy, I like the Warwagon concept. I like the wrong. Corley: Explain Warwagon. Explain Warwagon in how you perceive it. Dave Quigg: Sure, I perceive it as dead load. There is nothing pre-connected. I've got four or five hundred feet of inch and three quarter, and it's packed and ready to go. I would prefer something like that, maybe with a hundred foot bundle. We have a lot of deadbeds on the back end of my engine, which I do I like. I think it the number one engine company mistake is engine company stretching short And the pre-connect has definitely contributed to that. So having that ability to get, you know, I'll say a hundred foot bundle close to the fire compartment, I think is super important, especially to start looking at these newer buildings if you're going to use the stairs. What we've been finding in our department is that the fire compartments, especially in the end units in these new mid-rise multiple dwellings. are generally the largest. And if you get like a three bedroom in those corners, you're looking at at least 60 to 70 feet of hose just to get in there and cover the whole the whole fire comp compartment where in the past we always said that that nozzle and fifty feet would cover just about everything you needed and it's just not the case anymore So I think having something like a hundred-foot bundle with a tremendous amount of deadloaded hose next to it or underneath it is a huge benefit.

Corley: Nice. Quattro Kyle. What are your go slash no go on deck gun exterior water on arrival? Dave Quigg: Man, these are some heavy questions tonight, Corley. Corley: They're not they're not they're not giving you soft tosses. No, they're not. They said Dave Quick, we got this. Dave Quigg: So this is a question that my middle guy John Goldrick asked me when he came to my engine company last year. we've been messing around a little bit with the deck gun. So for me, we do a lot of porch fires If it wasn't for cigarettes and wooden porches in the city of Manchester, we wouldn't go to a ton of fires. We're a mini Boston. So it's three deckers and two and a half frames with apartments on every floor. so for me in my job, the deck gun is very difficult to use because the buildings are close together and you can't get the right angle a lot of times. So if the porches were going top to bottom in the front, yeah, I might think about that. Or we had a fire recently where the porches were going in the back and they ended up using the deck gun. after they initially tried it with the hand line and then went with it and it was the right it was the right call and the right application. So I can tell you I guess maybe not for sure where I would definitely use it but where I wouldn't. I'm not a deck gun fan on attached garages. In fact, I'm not even a portable monitor fan on attached garages. I think that you can do a tremendous amount of work with a properly pumped two two inch, two and a quarter, two and a half flow in that 240 to 265, 300 range. I look at that deck gun more for me like those porches. And one of the things that we've been working on with my engine company is under pumping and over pumping those deck guns. Cause when you look at the proximity of your engine to the building that you're trying to hit, a lot of times you don't need all of that velocity And sometimes it just goes through and it doesn't do that much work. So slowing that water down coming out sometimes and making it chunkier anecdotally on like training buildings. and stuff seems to work pretty good.

Dave Quigg: So we've been kind of messing around with that a little bit. And especially again with our city being so densely populated with buildings next to each other. I may use that duck gun to code an exposure. Well I don't want that laser beam to we have multiple layers of siding. We still have asphalt shingle siding. I don't want to blow that off. So what can I do? If I slow that down a little bit and I more paint it and allow it to, you know, sort of soft toss and run down Corley: You know, maybe that's the way to go, but when you say chunky, are you saying like really low velocity and like almost doing like a lintel hit or just splashing it everywhere? Yeah, I guess we're possible Dave Quigg: Yeah, like not just kind of arching it, but it's just slower in speed. So when it hits, it sort of like rains down versus giving you that smack where you get the tiny drops that are just distributing everywhere So again, that's something that we've been working on. I haven't had a chance to put into application. One of the things that I love talking to Uncle Ray about is just ideas And maybe I'm wrong. What we're talking about right now, someone might be like, Dave, we've tried it and you're 100% wrong. And maybe I am. And I'm okay with that because we're talking about will it work or not? And we're okay putting ourselves out there as an engine company to see whether or not it will because that's how advances are made within the business.

Corley: And that's how we can find out because someone on the scrap might have a chance tomorrow roll it up on a porch fire and be really close and say, wait, let's not blast it with the laser beam Let's try Dave's plan and they can let us know. Dave Quigg: Okay, perfect. I'm in. Corley: what are your thoughts on a written playbook to give to your members of various types of hose stretches or water supply options? Do you like the written playbook beforehand? This comes from Red Sox 3947. Dave Quigg: Man, man, whoever that is, whoever that is after my own heart, big Red Sox fan here. Yes, I am all about the engine company playbook. stemming from Aaron Field's novel four program where he talks about some of just the deployment things and and rules of three. I I heard him talk about the rules of three for the first time and then Bonifield talking about it on the scrap with you maybe a year and a half or two years ago And I had reached out to Jay and I said, hey man, you guys keep talking about this rules of three thing. Like where can I figure this out? So he turned me on the sources of power and and some other stuff. And we my at least with my guys, I can't say it it's not a playbook for for my job, but for me and my folks. We have we break everything down into no more than three options or three variables or three steps for the first hand line. So from estimating the stretch to three different attack package options with three different flows to the best three options for us to go interior on a stretch, the best three options for us to do an exterior stretch, three types of hose movement with water application, three things that we're going to do after the fire is knocked down. Yeah, I'm all as you can tell, I'm all for it. I'm all on it. I think we even break that down in for the second due engine. Second due engine on my job is responsible for water supply. We don't forward lay-in. The majority of our job reverses out. We pump the hydrant. We leave the front open for the truck. So with that being said, I think that the second due engine boss in most places has the hardest job and the most thought-provoking job.

Dave Quigg: So most fire departments, the second DU engine is responsible for water supply. And at least with my city, it's forward layer, reverse layer, booster backup. But I have to figure out what that is. Not only do I have to find the right hydrant, but what if that hydrant's bad So anytime I'm going in, I say to Stevie, who drives me most of the time, I go, Stevie, this is your first option on the hydrant. You're reversing out. I'm not going to be there with you. If that hydrant's bad, your best location after that is to go to here So I don't want him having to look at the MDT. I don't want him to have to think about what that is. It's, hey, if this is bad, here's the next option. So now I've got my water supply, I've figured out what that is. Now I've got to walk up to the building and I have three options when I get up to the building. I'm either going to help the first line get into operation, which is the thing that I always do the most. We don't have we have four three-man engine, four four-man engine companies and six three-man engine companies. So if I'm responding second due and I'm going to a district with a three-man engine company, I'm making sure that first line is making progress. And these three deckers and two and a half frames, the front hallways, are very tight. They're very narrow. They're filled with a lot of junk Getting one line in operation can be very difficult. So okay, I'm going to see is that line moving? If the answer is yes, okay, what's my next option? Well, am I going to be a backup line You know, or that does it seem like they're making progress? So they're they're they're they're getting that line moving and in place. Now I'm gonna go back and get another line. As I'm doing that and I turn back, I gotta see well, are they getting conversion or do things look like it's not going quite right? Because now maybe the answer is I got to bring a backup line in that's a little bit bigger with some more firepower. Okay, cool. I take a look. I go, okay, it looks like they're doing pretty well. Okay, now my next option then would be I'm going to the floor above.

Dave Quigg: We do a lot of Searching ahead of the hand line, heavy rescue company in my city is responsible for search. So we put people above the fire all the time with no protection. So I know that if if everything seems to be even marginally moving well with the first line I'm going to the next floor above. But now I got to think about, well, what's that look like? Do I have fire out the windows or am I going for extension? I know that that line needs to probably be at least 50 feet longer because I'm going to that next floor above So there's all of those different things. So even in the second do, I break it down into threes, but what we just talked, I think that's why the decision-making matrix for the second do engine boss in most places is the most difficult. Now if you take take it out of the urban environment from where I'm at, well now if you're second do and you've made sure the first line is going, maybe you're the search company now. Maybe you're outside then. Like there's all of these other things that happen in smaller jobs that I'm just not familiar with, but I know that They have to then evaluate that too. So for the engine bosses out there, get just as good with your second due stuff as you are your first due stuff

Corley: Boom, man. There's a there's a class right there in that answer, man. Crushed it absolutely out of the park. And the threes, man. You're gonna I I is that a lecture you do now or is it just strictly just all going on up here for your crews and things like that? Dave Quigg: So it started with just the outline and I've been fortunate enough, I guess, for folks to say, hey, can you put together like a basic engine class for us? And I've I I started doing that. It started as just a a class for my job for Proby School, but yeah, I now offer that as well. Corley: Nice, nice. No, that's I wouldn't want again, there's some classes I gotta catch, obviously. because the first time we met, you were just a hose rep at a conference. That's how I that's how I met you And so and so but where was I going? Oh since we're on the fire ground, let's go to the engine company urgence. I love this loss or reduction of water in the hand line, the urgence How do I identify and rectify them, both at the nozzle and at the pump panel? Go.

Dave Quigg: Sure. So going back to what we were just talking about with that engine class, this is gonna sound completely Snooty and for folks that know me know that I'm not that way, but for those that don't, I want to preface it with that. I'm on the back nine of my career, so I got like maybe eight or ten years left. And what I've really been focusing on a lot recently has been gaps within the fire service. And when I say gaps, it's not looking for gaps. It's I'm running into these situations on my job, and we're fortunate enough to still be a job that goes the fire. So we're getting a lot of really good experience. And I'll get back and I'll be like, I'll try to do some research on something and it's just not there. So like my vertical stretch class came from that gap. The engine boss, I didn't set out to write an engine boss class It was that my guy needed it and it was like, wait a minute, if all of these people need it, and then I gave it to some other guys on my job, they're like, this is really good. I realized, well, it's probably a gap within the fire service So as far as loss of water and urgence goes, so I've had seven engine company emergencies in my career, two as a private and five as an officer. Some of which I probably should have called a Mayday, and all of which were when I was operating on the first hand line and within the first 10 minutes of a fire. And We do a really good job in the fire service of training and we do a really great job of having pretty successful outcomes or we have some failures because we were heading towards successful outcomes or trying to achieve that, but we don't really talk about when shit goes bad. And the one that really solidified it for me is we had a hose that burst the coupling and the hose completely separated on the back step of my engine while we were in the fire compartment with the truck searching out in front with a proby on the nozzle. And prior to that, I thought that I was a home run boss, man. I took my guys out. I run this drill where I build out 200 foot line I put a gated Y in the middle of it.

Dave Quigg: I have them flow the water the right way. I open up the open port on the gated Y. That should simulates a catastrophic failure. Everything at the tip goes bad. The yet, you know, they're look we don't have pump governors on my job. We're still using old school, which we love, the old school relief valves. So the minute that that happens, the pressure drops on the gauge, my guys can identify it we have foam injectors on my engine so if they turn the flow meter on on a pre-connect then they can see what the flow is at okay so now I've got No water at the nozzle. I've got a decrease in the gauge and an increase in the flow meter. Oh, I got a burst line. I mean, we drilled on that all the time. Like my guys were all set for this. You know what I didn't do? I didn't figure out what I was gonna do when the problem happened and how we were gonna rectify it. Identified it. So identified it, but didn't rectify it. And that was a really humbling Experience for me that, you know, I thought I was crushing it and I probably had a little bit of an ego about it. We were the only ones running that drill. And I didn't prepare for it And all of a sudden I'm like, eh, so again, my senior man, Stevie Goopel, he's got more time in my company than I have on my job. And he chauffeurs for me most of the time. He was heads up. We carry spit we carry a bundle of 100 feet that's banded for extending lines. Well he said, well, I can use this to replace it. And him with the chauffeur, the second do engine, had that line back in operation in under 40 seconds.

Corley: Oh wow. Dave Quigg: So he figured it out and which is great. But after that, I'm like, man, I'm like, we gotta really look at this stuff. So as I've started to do some research, there's not a whole lot out there about loss of water. So running some of these drills, but also What happens when your nozzle is like, hey, I've lost pressure in the nozzle? Well, if they close it and the pressure rebuilds, they probably have a kink or it's just not pumped the right way. versus when they get a loss of pressure at the nozzle and they close it and it still stays kind of limp, you probably have some kind of burst in there. if I get a clog in my nozzle because and I'm using a combination nozzle, well when that when that clog or whatever hits the nozzle, a couple things happen. Number one, you usually hear like this squeal. Number two, it's like a water hammer, so the nozzle gets jolted forward because it's like you shutting the bale down super fast. Corley: Yeah, exactly. Dave Quigg: And now all of a sudden, when they feel the rigidity of the hose, it's still super hard. So the other thing I realized was our academy in the state wasn't doing a good job of talking to folks about the flush feature on a combination nozzle. So now what we started to do because we have break up our combination nozzles is now we run the drill, we put the almonds in there It gets jammed up. You bring them back to a safe spot. well first they try to flush it. They identify it, shut it down, and they try to flush it. That doesn't work. Go back to a safe spot. unscrew the tip, bang it out, clear the bail, put it back on, test it, and move back in. But there aren't a whole lot of things with that, you know, there isn't a lot of literature classes out there about it. So myself, Ray, Jack ayers and Cameron Gangbin have a new program called the Elevated Engine and it's a hybrid program and part of it is exactly what we just talked about. There'll be some lecture about identifying issues with your handline and engine company emergencies and errors. And then we'll go out and do some some drilling on that as well.

Corley: The other parts on vertical stretching. Dave Quigg: Exactly. So that way you can put that in your hand and feel what that's going to be like and bring it back to your department. So when those things happen because it's not possibly going to happen as Aaron would say. It's probably going to happen at some point. How do you identify it? And I just haven't, I just wasn't prepared When I was encountering first lines, when I was encountering a member who was sick, when a a guy from the truck was lost and disoriented and found the first line and I was on my way out but didn't have my hand on the line and we got turned around together, right? Like there were all these things that we just never practiced. And I think that it's again a missing gap in the engine company world and the fire service Corley: No, and I think that's a unique thing that you have where and I'm I don't want to just label it as humility, but like a the the there's a recurring theme here where where you're able to look at it and say, okay, what am I getting wrong? And and what well, how did I make a mistake? And there's a lot of people that just never look in the mirror first. And and and I think that's the well, it is the key to growth. And so and that's a that's a powerful part of your story. So let's get to some nerd stuff. Because that would be a disservice if we didn't. Attack package design. Breaking it down into what? Three?

Dave Quigg: Breaking it down into threes. Corley: Let's hear the three components of attack package design. Dave Quigg: Well, I talked about it a little bit earlier on, but the first part is the hydraulic piece of it. You just have to start with that. You got to figure out what your target flow is going to be. You need to figure out what type of nozzle you want to use. and then you need to look at the right hose that's going to deliver the water that you want but also the length that you want it to be as well. And that's I'm glad that someone asked that question earlier because that's always something I'll say. They're like, well I want a truer ID hose And I'm going to flow 160 gallons per minute. And then my next question is like, what's your longest length? Because now if we're looking at say 30 or 35 pounds of friction loss per 100 feet, And you tell me that you need to go 600 feet. Well, maybe we need to go to a larger charged internal diameter at the lower flow because the other one's going to max out the pump the pump rating, pump pressure rating on your engine. So the the one thing that I've been focusing on a lot now, I have a piece that's all done ready to be submitted is it talks about the hose ability to support the weight of the nozzle And it kind of breaks down hose whip versus nozzle whip. But at the end of the day, once you've figured out everything hydraulically, you also need to put the nozzle on that you want to use to make sure that the hose can support that when you have the line out in front of you.

Corley: No, now for just ignorance. Ignorance like hose whip versus nozzle whip. Break that down for me into simple terms. Dave Quigg: Sure. nozzle whip is caused by the nozzle itself. So it usually has to do with the weight of the nozzle, the length of the nozzle, or the way that the nozzle is weighted. So you can actually have, say, a combination nozzle that is heavier than another one, but perform better because the tip isn't as heavy. So they've weighted everything sort of linear over the over the length of the whole nozzle. And it's not just end heavy So that ender heavy one might weigh down the end of the line when you start to use it based on the kind of construction of hose that you have. So then you had pistol grips and everything else on there. And now it's like, oh, the nozzle is what's causing this problem here, not the hose. Versus the hose whip would be I bought a or I'm using an economy hose designed for high pressure nozzles. Corley: And pumping it. Dave Quigg: pumping it at 50 or more importantly it would be I'm trying to put too much water through here aka breaking the Freeman ratio The Freeman ratio is about the speed of the water in the tube and its ability to be more linear and push against the sidewalls to prevent the kinking. Well, if I put too much water through too small of a tube, the water stays turbulent, it stays in the middle, and then I get increased kinking. So that's not a problem with the nozzle. That's a problem that I didn't select the right hose.

Corley: So that's how I break that down. Just simple like that. Just simple like that. Dave Quigg: So that's kind of what the the article's about. But I do offer a lot of remedies. So if you have an issue with nozzle whip, this is something you can consider. If you have a problem with hose whip, this is something that you can So once you get things done hydraulically, you can move on to step number two, which in my opinion is your objective components. Corley: So I want to ask, you know, before you get you got on hydraulic, I just want to ask opinion only, because I wanted to get this in here before you got to objective. But hydraulic, what what is your target flow that you if if Magic wand, Dave Quick was designing target flow for a hand line. Dave Quigg: What would you go with? The majority of the time it's gonna be 150 or 160 gallons per minute. We did a very big nozzle and appliance study about two years ago on my job. We still use 1516 and 185. But it's it's specific because of the interior exposures that we have in our three deckers. There's a lot of compartments. There are a lot of interior exposures. And like we talked about a little while ago, the front hallways are so hard to get one line in operation that we need to have that higher flow. Same thing because of the fire starting on the porches on the outside

Corley: The next 30, 25 gallons. Yeah. Okay. Dave Quigg: Yeah, that with the with the larger like stream or column allows us to do it. So we spent a lot of time and we went back and forth. Our city, we have a lot of a large portion of our city that could benefit from that 160, but to keep it consistent, but yeah, for the most of the American Fire Service, 160 160. Okay. Corley: No, no, I wanted to get in. Okay. Dave Quigg: Hydraulics covered. Objective. Objective to me are things that you can quantify So what's the charged outside diameter of the hose? Well, I don't have very big hands, so that means I got small gloves. It's hard for me to grab that line. and move it forward. So put a glove hand on there. The charge outside diameter matters. And that's why I personally think that the two and a quarter hose is more preferable, not because of weight, but because you can can grip it. Corley: Grip. Dave Quigg: You can actually put your hand around it and move it and use your muscles. you know a lot of firefighters can pick up a three-inch hose or even a four-inch hose, but they can't move it because you can't get your mitts around it. So something like charged outside diameter. What is the weight of the hose when it's charged? If you're going to be putting this in a modified Minuteman and I have to climb five stories with my hose and I carry a 150 foot shoulder bundle, say. I know a lot of people don't, but some people are moving towards it. Like, what's the weight of that?

Corley: That matters You know, what's the construction? Dave Quigg: If I put I like to do this kink test, I learned it from Kevin McCart when he was in Antonia And I was doing some stuff with a hose manufacturer and we did a demo out there. He took some duct tape and he made a 90-degree like tea. I'm sorry, he made like a tea with the duct tape. Which formed a ninety, and then he made another piece of tape that made a forty-five off of it, and then he made like a one eighty for consistency. So I'm gonna do all of this test. Okay, I'm gonna put a 90 degree kink in it. If you and I were to pick up a hose and say, let's kink test this Corley, you're gonna put probably more pressure against it because you're stronger than I am And then you could manipulate what you wanted that hose to do. But if you lay the hose down on this tape, as opposed to having to build out like a wooden jig, you could say, okay, at a 90 degree bend, this is how much water I lose. And more importantly, this is what the stream quality is. If I put a 45 in it, if I put a 180 in it, because I gotta, you know, go down basement stairs or up interior stairs and make that that 180 turn back, this is what I can expect, but I can quantify that and then you get into like colors, warranty, couplings, things that might be way out, coupling, you know, all those different features. Can I engrave it? But it's all things that are tangible.

Corley: Right, right. Things you can measure. Dave Quigg: Yes. So it's like, okay, I got the hydraulics down and now I've got this to four different models of hose. And now objectively all of these things that I wanna like have in a hose that and it's about what you care about. If heat resistance is the number one thing your fire department cares about. then you would get that heat testing results from the manufacturers and say, okay, okay, I just eliminated two of these. So objectively, I've got hydraulically and objectively two of these hoses, home run. My job would love these The part that the fire service, in my opinion, failed at the worst is subjectivity. And they don't value it enough, I don't think. Corley: Okay. Dave Quigg: Okay. So if I did not I thought you were gonna go the other direction. They put too much weight in it. So yeah, you surprised me. Go for it So I think a lot of times they do, but in this particular scenario, when you've hit the hydraulics and you've hit the objectivity, well, now it's about feel. And if nine out of ten people want to go to war with this weapon, then if you're the fire chief or the person who's leading that committee, you should get the product. That nine out of ten people feel comfortable going to battle with because all the other things that really matter have already been.

Corley: Did you check the boxes that on what mattered? Okay, no, no, okay, that makes sense. Dave Quigg: So I say it's like Ford and Chevy. You know, there's people that are only going to drive a Ford and people are only going to drive a Chevy. It's got, I'm not a car guy, but it's got everything that you want in it. You just happen to like that manufacturer. That's what you go with. That's okay. Corley: Right on. Right on. Okay, no, I love it. I did not think you're going that direction. I love that. the nerd stuff. I mean let me look and see at any. There's a ton of questions. I've been I've been having fun. keep pulling them up here. Yeah, there's about 20 questions. Red Sox3947 wants to know can you repeat the relationship between sidewall pressure versus water velocity and GPM flow? It seems to be a concept that many don't fully understand. So I don't know how nerdy you want to get on that again, but I wanted to give a chance to clear or dig in, so go ahead. Dave Quigg: I'll do my best. So it's it really starts with the Freeman ratio. And we most folks understand that the Freeman ratio says that your hose should not be larger than half the diameter. Your nozzle tip size should not be larger than half the diameter. of the hose. The part that's really missing in the American Fire Service with that is that it's the charged internal diameter of the hose. So when you ask a ho a nozzle, a hose manufacturer for their diameters, there's three that they can give you. So you have to be very specific. They can give you the nominal size or the trade size. That's inch and three quarter. Then you say, well, what's your internal diameter? Well, the internal diameter that they're going to give you is where they cut the coupling off and they take a tapered plug and they measure it So they're going to say it's 1. 81.

Corley: Okay. Dave Quigg: Let's say as an example, 1. 83. Now you're like, okay, well, I can't buy that 1. 83 inch hose because and put a 1516 on there Because half of whatever one is. Yeah, we're bigger than the Freeman ratio. So now you're like, man, I can't use that. But in reality, when you charge it, that charge hose goes to like 1. 92. Well, 1. 92. fits right into the Freeman ratio. So firefighters need to, when they ask the question, the number that they really want is the charged internal diameter. And one of the standards that one of the changes we made in the NFPA standard last year, and even though he's not on the committee, reach out to Dennis and kind of get some of his opinion on some things. And we worked through this together. But one of the things that we were able to get added last time around is that fire hose manufacturers shall they shall publicly publish the charged internal diameter of fire hose at 50 psi That's so that way firefighters when they're doing their research can look at the website and know right off the bat which nozzle tip sizes are gonna work. Right. So that ties the NFPA piece into it. So now I look at this and I go, okay, if my Freeman ratio works and I'm not larger than half the diameter, that means that the water is moving through the hose at a speed that is going to keep it more straight or linear, right? So it's it's moving through very nicely. according to to Freeman 21 feet per second is about the ideal speed that you want the water to be traveling within the hose When it stays laminar or stays sort of, I'll say like smooth in the hand line, it pushes up against all the outside pieces of the hose. So that's what's kind of working to give it its kink resistance Okay. Tracking so tracking so far. Now if I said, all right, I'm gonna go with a larger diameter nozzle tip size on there, then what is would the Freeman ratio would have? Or I try to even over pump that and get more water out, like significantly more water out of it. The water then is turbulent and it's spinning in the middle of the hose. And when it spins in the middle of the hose, it doesn't allow it to push against the outside of the hose to give the hose the rigidity that it needs or the kink resistance.

Dave Quigg: So when I've consulted with fire departments, they'll say to me, dude, I put the novel on here and it sucks So what did I do? I the kinking was terrible. I tried to put more pressure in there and the kinking got worse. And I go, exactly. That's exactly what's supposed to happen. So the other piece that I'll I'll end with there is the Freeman ratio also applies to combination nozzles as well and it's that surface area of the opening but more importantly if you were to look at the gallons per minute and the and the base nozzle pressure, let's say it's a 160 at 50, just look to see what its solid bore equivalent would be, which we know would be a 7. Corley: 8. Dave Quigg: Well does the 78ths then match to what the charge internal diameter is and meet the Freeman ratio? If the answer is yes, then you can go with that 160 at 50 combination tip. Gotcha. Corley: Clear as mud for everybody listening. Dave Quigg: I hope that helped Red Sox out there. Corley: No, no. I think I think I mean if I can hang on to it with my with my with my brain then I then I think it was but there you can listen you can run it back and listen to it again. but no you broke it down very succinctly. So I I do appreciate that. All right, I'm looking for one more then we'll move on here. Let me see And I wanted to ask you, two and a quarter, you a fan or not a fan? I mean I'm not that not not specifics or anything like that, but fan or not a fan. Huge fan. Okay. All day every day. let's see, Kindle Foast 1224. Dave, can you elaborate on actual two-inch flowing 250-265 with back pressure increaser? Did you elab did you did you break that down at some point? I didn't know I don't know what the elaborate or is he just asking for an elaboration on actual two-inch flowing 25265 with back pressure increaser. Do you like back pressure increasers, the new the devices?

Dave Quigg: yes and no. Corley: Can I say that? Dave Quigg: Again, that's not about products. Corley: I'm not trying to review products or anything, but Dave Quigg: so I think that the back pressure so hang on let me start I'll I'll go with Kendall's question first and then I'll come back to the back pressure if that's okay. So two-inch hose really comes down to again what's the charged internal diameter. my engine company, we use a ton of two-inch hose. It expands to like 2. 13 or 2. 14 at 50 pound. We put it, it would be ideal with an inch and a sixteenth tip, but we use an inch and an eighth tip to match the two and a half. the but we have inch and a half coupling. So the reason why we do that is the two-inch hose is great, but we can only go about 300 feet before we max out the pump pressure at 250 pounds because of how high the friction loss is So to we to order in order to only have three attack packages, a small, a medium, and then like a deck gun. So we're 185, 265, and 500. We wanted to keep the the target flow the same, but the conduit to get it there is the only thing that's different. Yes, it's a little bit squirrely because it breaks the Freeman ratio. But because of the areas where we operate, they're just a lot of boxes on boxes. We don't flow and move a lot because we don't have that ability. The majority of our fires happen in pre-war buildings. where when I enter the apartment, I'm already 20 feet into an apartment that's 60 feet deep overall. And it's kind of broken into thirds. And by the time I move 20 feet and I cross the threshold into the back third I can hit every room with the reach of my stream. I don't have to do anything else. So for us, we're okay with it and doing it. So to answer his question, you can get 240, 2250, 265 out of two inch But it's really just based on how large the charge internal diameter is. So I think, yeah, I think I'm good with it. I think you can do it. And you just have to be comfortable with how that hose performs for your particular operation

Corley: And a big takeaway from this scrap for me is charged internal diameter is the key when you're evaluating hosts. So make sure. And again, I I I would be surprised About I I would not be surprised how many how few people actually knew that that was a huge key for evaluation. So I love that. And and the and the fire service is getting smarter in this regard, even It definitely is. Dave Quigg: So as far as the back pressure device, I do. I think it's great. I think it's an awesome design. I think it makes Okay hose really good. I think it makes some really good hoes excellent And as far as the two-inch goes, by increasing the increasing the pressure in the hose line, By 25 pounds behind the nozzle, and if it's 25 pounds greater behind the nozzle, it's also greater from where it starts out at the rig, right? Because you get a decrease in the pressure, a high pressure at the nozzle or at the pump when it comes out, and it decreases as you get to the end. So the end product is an extra 25 pounds by having 75 PSI behind the nozzle, but further back in the line, it's higher, which gives you good kink resistance. You're able to break the Freeman ratio at times by having that back pressure device on there because the hose will continue to expand at that higher pressure and also give you the extra rigidity that you need so you don't get the hose whipped when you're flowing water. But I've also seen where that back pressure device on a really good premium hose made the hose too rigid. It was like a steel pipe trying to move it forward to where I didn't. Yeah. And I saw that last year with and I think they may have changed some of it. So it was the initial version of the two and a half turbo on a super premium two and a half inch hose line that also charged to like 2. 7 inches So now I have higher pressure in there with a really beefy hose and a large column of water that, especially when the nozzle is not flowing, I can't compress And you couldn't even like clamp it to try to, you know, move it forward or sit on it. You had to really open that nozzle a lot.

Dave Quigg: just to be able to bring it up to flow water and place it where you wanted to. Corley: And what's that like 2. 7? That'd be like almost a gallon a foot or over a gallon a foot, so like nine pounds a foot of stuff of concrete. Dave Quigg: Yeah, it's tough, man. So I'm a bit I I like it. I I've got one from a kit that they sent me and I think it does really good. But again, I think you have to evaluate that objective piece and and also the subjective piece of If I add this on here, even if it makes the host stiffer, if I work in an environment that's all older buildings that are box on box, if I can't move it around and it's not pliable enough to make corners, then it's no good to me. I think there's times where we place too much value in kink resistance in our fire hose. Corley: Hmm. I like it. I love it. I want to come and on the topic of maneuverability and speed. Dragons Dan had a great question. Inch and a half, you know, I don't know if you saw the Chief Stone making his little article or little post about an argument for the inch and a half maneuverability versus you know Size. What's your what where do you come in on the on the I don't want to say yeah what what what's your opinion? Subjectivity.

Dave Quigg: Well I had a chance to go on Tyler Evans podcast. the citizens fireman with Ray and DJ to talk about it. Corley: And that was great. Dave Quigg: It was one of the best things. Corley: So I'll give that a plug so you can hear this hour long conversation. Dave Quigg: But what do I think about it? I think that the hose itself is fine. I don't have a problem with inch and a half hose because it's the conduit The the thing that I disagree with DJ on is the gallons per minute. And him and I are actually going to be roomies together at FDIC this year. Corley: So he's a good friend of mine and we've had this conversation. Dave Quigg: So So what I'm talking about, him and I have talked at length about, I don't think that we should be starting at 125 or 130 gallons per minute, regardless of what the conduit is But you know what? If you can get me an inch and a half hose that when it charges, it's closer to 1. 75 or 1. 73. And then if you were to put a back pressure device on there to give it the rigidity Or even if you didn't have to do that, then cool, man. Like I want the smaller, more maneuverable hand line all day long. What I liken it to is it's no different than a two and a quarter inch hose. Right, two and a quarter came out because we wanted to make to get the same flow of the two and a half, but make it easier. Well, if you can give me an inch and a half hose that flows the same amount of water as an inch and three-quarter, why wouldn't I take something that's smaller and easier So I look at it that way.

Corley: Your argument is strictly the flow. Don't move on the 150. Correct. Okay. No, I can I can respect that. And and I love the answer. I love the answer. I didn't I haven't seen that podcast. So now you got me now I've got my homework, official homework to go check out that conversation. It was a blast. It sounds like it All right, everybody's got homework now. all right, let's move to book or books. Let me see, is there anything else on the list before I move to book or books? Yeah, I think we're solid. Okay. Solid. book or books that you think firefighters should be reading? Dave Quigg: So I'll preface it with I'm not a big book reader. So I don't have a whole lot, but I'll give you the ones that I guess I do know. Nengin guy. the book of Andy, boy oh boy, it's it's that all day long. Folks that know me know I had Andy Fredericks as a college professor in 1996. I didn't really know who Andy was. I was at Rockland Community College just north of the city. And I still got a paper regraded and it's got a lot of red ink on it. I remember when he read like he he read us the Riot Act when We left we left class because he got stuck in traffic and we're like, oh 20 minute rule, we're out of here. Yeah, that didn't fly so good with him. But so where I'm going with that is is Andy had a big influence in my love of the engine, I believe. I didn't really know him that well. I don't pretend to have known him that well. He was a professor for for me for two semesters. And at that point in my life, all I cared about was wearing the t-shirt and riding backwards on the fire engine and going to fires. But once I was done with Rockland Community College and all my fire science classes in one year I was getting fire engineering magazine. I was like, oh, I know this guy. He was my college professor. And I think when you have a human connection with people, you buy into kind of what they are, especially when you're young at an impressionable age. And so the book of Andy for me is a home run.

Dave Quigg: I read this stuff early on, you know, when he was writing it before he was murdered. And What I love about it the most is that 90% or 92% of what is in that book is still solid and true today. And the fact that the science is proving what his experience is were back in the day, which I think is just super cool, man. Like I love that. Corley: So from an engine company perspective. Yeah. Full circle with the human connection, man. That's pretty powerful. Dave Quigg: So that was cool. I read a really great book a couple winters ago. It was called Three Ring Circus. I'm a big basketball fan and a huge Celtics fan, but I've also got this fascination with the LA Lakers. And maybe that's from growing up in that bird magic era and stuff, but you know, Tinseltown and everything else. But it went back to the days when Phil Jackson was coaching Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. So two of the biggest personalities and two of the best players in the game. And then he had all these other role players, and they won those three championships back to back to back. And what I loved about it was he talked a lot about how to treat people. And it was you had to be fair, but not the same And it was a good read from a leadership point of view because he had to massage all of those egos. And by doing so, they were super successful. And I think that that's no different than taking big personalities in the firehouse And trying to get them on the same page and to to buy into whatever that message was. So I enjoyed it not only from a basketball perspective, but also from I guess, a leadership perspective.

Corley: Three Ring Circus. Three Ring Circus. I have to check it out. I am a I'm a huge Kobe fan. Black Bamba, man. I absolutely love his mentality and stuff. So You'll love it. Okay Dave Quigg: I guess the last one that I have, and probably you've had it before, is I I think it's Stephen Covey Jr. Stephen R. Covey. I don't know if it's Kobe or Covey, but Trust and Inspire I think it's a great book. I think that's the way that all of us want to be treated. And I can tell you that we've been a lot more successful on the fire ground because of it. So real quick, I'll just tie it back to the engine boss class at the very end, although the the class is really about leading the first line, I have a little section that that's called you know, engine boss tips regardless of do. And one of it is just listen to your people. And there have been a couple of times in the last year where my junior man at 24 has been like, we should do this. And he was spot on And, you know, if you tell people that you're going to take their opinion and that you value it, sometimes too, you have to take it, even if it's not the best. But it's not going to get you hurt because you want them to continue to give you that. And I think if you build that trust by, you know, valuing it and taking some of those things. They will continue to come with it. And there have been times where we wouldn't have been successful if it wasn't for that kid at 24 years old, Theo, that said to me, Dave, I think we should do this. And he was 100% right. I didn't need it, wasn't even on my radar.

Corley: No, I love that. Because I'm working on this working theory. I don't know if it's gonna be a book or a class or what, but it's just heard, valued, understood. And that's what people need. They need to be heard, valued, understood. And you meet that requirement. And I I again it's a working theory. I'm still I'm still trying to throw problems at it that break it, but I really do think it really comes down to something that simple. And that in the and your your engine boss model fits my current theorem So I love those books. So that takes us to the five questions for firefighters. It's the thing we do here where there's no right answers, only your opinions. We're on this is a brand new iteration because I've been changing the questions that I wasn't happy with And so you get this is like a 5. 02 version. So anyway, are you ready? Points are arbitrary. Points are arbitrary assigned by me with the help of the audience. Here we go. You can do anything in the world except be a firefighter. What would you choose to be? Dave Quigg: I would choose to do something in the music industry. I'm very intrigued by the songwriting process, by the production, by taking I taking lines or thoughts that these mus songwriters have that they put in their notes and years later they come back to and they're like, I want to write a song about this. And the word smithing that goes into it and then how you get that B all the way through production. I'd love to work on Music Row in Nashville. I think that would be my that would be my dream job outside of being a firefighter

Corley: That's awesome, answer. You have to get with Sam. Sam loves Sam's as the songwriter. And so but I went to Nashville one time because that's like a cutthroat place. And we went to watch a Titans game. So we were walking down, I don't know the, I don't know the geography of the area, but it was just music bar after music bar down by the river, just music bar after music bar. And I'm telling you It was some of the most beautiful live music I've heard from every door you walked past. Beautiful people, beautiful music, the entire place. I was like, what is this place? So you talk about stepping into Hornets Nest of Talent that would be amazing. number two, at max points, by the way, on music. I would not have pegged you for a music guy. Really. That kind of came out of left field for me. not that you know, anyway. it's job town. I would expect it to be something in the STEM field or something, not the heart. I guess no doubt, no doubt. It's Jobtown. It's time. You're in route and responding The scene from Backdraft, slapping that tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while in route?

Dave Quigg: Wow, man. So I listened to Corley: It is no pressure. You're a song guy now, so no pressure. Dave Quigg: Is it and and I'm gonna blank on his name now. It was two weeks ago. Is it Andrew Johnston? Yes. Johnson? Johnson. I didn't know who he was. I'm like, I gotta get prepared for these five questions. I gotta see if Corley's changed these up And he stole my song Eminem Lose Yourself. I think that that's really great. So I'll throw that out there. That was my original. Okay. But I really like this song by Fort Minor And I'm also a big hip-hop guy. Corley: Maybe you wouldn't have taken me for that either, but I'm a huge hip guy guy. Dave Quigg: And it's called Remember the Name. And he talks about like, you know, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to remember my name. So what I really like about it and and I would take I don't like it for the I portion of it, but I think about my engine company and I think about all of the work that we do to try to be successful and there is skill and there is luck and there is pain and there's all these things that we're trying to get through. And hopefully at the end of the day, people are like, you know what? We know Engine Company 11 and we know that when they show up at the job that they're going to get the job done It might not be pretty and we know that they're gonna get it screwed up, but they're reliable and they're dependable. And I think that that song talks about that not only with hard work, but about like, you know what, we're gonna do what we need to do and we'll be kind of silent professionals and And hopefully you'll remember us for being good at what we do.

Corley: I don't remember the percentage, but there's a I think it's 15% concentrated power of will. That's it. That is one of my favorite lines in a song. I do love that. Because that is what you're talking about. It's that grit So easy, yeah, Fort Minor. That is our first Fort Minor. Yes, Sam? Yeah. Absolutely. And max points two for two. Number three. Cold weekend at the station. Checks are done. Training is done. You've accomplished everything you're supposed to get done. The food is cooking. It's ready to go. And it's just one of them lazy Sundays. Football's over You're in the day room clicking through the TV. No one everybody's like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. What is the movie you stop and always finish? No matter what point you come into that movie. What's that movie for you? I'm going with the seasonal right now since we're there. Dave Quigg: It's Christmas Vacation. You can't go by Chevy Chase. You can't go by Christmas Vacation and not stop and not get everyone in that room to recite half the line, laugh about it And sometime during the night when you go out on that run after midnight, somebody's bringing up one of the quotes from that movie.

Corley: Oh yeah, Clark, yeah No, absolutely okay. I like that is it our first Christmas vacation? I'm looking to Sam for confirmation. I keep looking up Yep, he says yes. So two for two. Three for three on max points. Number four. This one's on the clock. Now this one is new for the listeners because it's not new for the listeners. It's new for Dave quick tonight because I threw the curveball and said, hey, I'm switching this one up. I don't like the last question. I haven't been liking the answers I've been getting. And so on the clock, we're going old school to Mount Rushmore because I really like the answers this question. One minute to answer who would you put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service? Dave Quigg: book. I'm putting Andy Fredericks up there for me, both from the personal standpoint and the body of work. It's in my wheelhouse. I'm going there. We talked about this guy a lot tonight too. I'm going to go with John Ripley Freeman You know, the godfather of the of the Freeman ratio and the solid board nozzle and all the testing and things like that. So I'll go with those two from like a fire service like known standpoint. The other two people, I'll put Battalion Chief Brian Fink, retired battalion commander out of the 19th Battalion. who I met at the NFPA in 2015. And he's been one of my biggest and most giant mentors in my fire service career. And only a small portion of it had to do with with actual tactics. I always recommend to folks that you find people that find more value in you and what you're capable of doing than you see in yourself. And he's one of those people on my list that That certainly signifies that. So I still call him to this day, even though he's been retired. so I'll put him on there and I'll also put Captain Greg Schwinard. He was my very first lieutenant in engine company 11. I'm sorry, engine company six. And he taught me how to be, I'll say a man. I'm an only child. I kind of grew up in the firehouse. They taught me how to cook. he also mostly taught me on the right way to treat people and how to be a human And you really taught me the finer points of being a company officer at you know 25 years old in 2003 that I didn't know that I was getting from him that I use today.

Dave Quigg: So those are my four. Corley: I love it. I love the nod to fire service history and then the personal connections, man. It rings true for the whole the whole scrap and it kind of comes full circle Especially when you said I grew up in the fire service and you taught me how to be a human. That connects to my soul because when you hire on young, I had a great upbringing. Do not get me wrong, my parents raised me well, but I grew up in the fire service. and and and you need those people in your life. It's awesome. Max points four for four. Final answer. And I'm I would guess the answer. But number five, heavy fire. Searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on that window initiated search? Dave Quigg: I don't even know what window initiated searches are, so I'm gonna go with first in on the nozzle. Corley: First in on the nozzle. And if you would have said anything else, that would have been the ultimate curveball of the nine. And there you go. There you go. Five for five max points from Dave Quick, the hose nerd. And that officially puts 330 scraps in the books. Dave Quick, first of all, thank you for sharing your evening with us. And if someone wants to get a hold of you. How can they go about doing that?

Dave Quigg: well, thank you for having me. This has been a blast. I've been looking forward to it since we set it up. probably social media is the easiest. David Quick on Facebook and at the hose nerd on Instagram. I'll try to get back to you. It might take me a little bit. And I'm trying to learn how to go to the requests button in the DMs on Instagram. Because if I guess if you're not friends with someone, it doesn't just pop up as a message. So if I don't get back to you right away, it's probably because I forgot to go look there. But I promise you I'll get back to you. so many folks have helped me out a along my career and I feel as though it's our job to continue Corley: I love that. I'll be asking, oh yeah, scrap challenge. What challenge do you want to give to the people who are listening that they need to get done by next Tuesday's scrap? Dave Quigg: Go do a stretch. Go stretch a hand line. the engine company lives and dies by its stretch. I'll I've no I've not name-dropped a few people, but Timmy Clett says the best that the calling card of any engine company is its stretch. But more importantly, with that stretch, focus on anticipation, especially if you're a company officer. Take a look and try to figure out as you're drilling, like where are things getting caught up? So when you have that new firefighter and they do have that tunnel vision and they're stretching that line at a fire for the first or second time in their career, you know it's going to get caught on that that type of stair or it's going to get caught on that type, whatever it is for your built environment But I've been focusing a lot on anticipation. So go do a stretch and then anticipate ahead of time where those problems are going to occur.

Corley: Beautiful. Beautiful. And the final thing is. Who do you think needs to be on the scrap? I'm always looking to expand my network. And so I I I fall into my rut of talking to the people I enjoy talking to and I'll have them back and back and back. But I'm always looking to expand it and get people I don't know So who needs to be on the scrap or be back? Go ahead. Okay, I got four. Dave Quigg: I think they're all new. Corley: Okay. Dave Quigg: I actually looked for this one to see, and I don't think you've been on. I think you need John Hall. from St. Paul Fire Department. Corley: Okay. Dave Quigg: right, big engine guy on the UL committee with me, writes that column and and firehouse magazine okay that's probably where i know his name from then okay yep so john halls one bill morris from the city of houston fire department from 68 engine. that guy's a home run. He goes to more fires in a year than most people probably go to in their careers. And he's super solid, super squared away, and and mostly just a really nice human. Corley: connections with 68. So I might be able to find the Yeah. Go ahead.

Dave Quigg: I would definitely say him. And then the final two are two guys that You probably don't know, but I'm doing that class with, and I just think that they're great. Jack Ayers, who's a captain in San Francisco, really involved with the fire nuggets and all like he runs the Bay Area Fire Conference with a handful of other folks and and the Santa Monica, the Long Live the Engine conference coming up, but again, just a good dude, very experienced. And Cameron Gangben, who's a captain in Napa County, he does a lot of like wildland stuff and dude, the things that they do and they drive through and all the things that they have to prepare for blows my mind. I would never want to drive through those firestorms and and do all the stuff that they do, but those are four people that I think that you would have great conversations with. with. Corley: That's awesome. Two California guys from the New Hampshire guy. Who to thunk? I love it, man. I'm throwing you all the curveball side. No doubt, brother. No doubt. They they call him the Hosenerd curveball thrower. go to patreon. com, the vigilantes. It's housekeeping time. Man, the vigilantes are awesome. The Discord is the the place to be. There's there was so much chatter in the Discord today and busting chops yesterday specifically If you're looking for a place to connect with like-minded souls, go to patreon. com backslash the vigilantes and become one. Go get on the Discord. It's awesome. This is a big deal. The V50 starts on January 1. We're doing a V50 together. It's a 50-day commitment. Starting January 1. So you got one month to get your book, get ready, get your mind right for January 1 and making that 50-day commitment. So if you want to be a part of it, again, get in the vigilante so you can jump in and and talk about it every day of course the best part of being a vigilante is you get to be in the after party. We get to bust Dave chops for how good he did, how many curveballs he threw tonight, and that'll be Sam will be posting that link in the Vigilante Discord and we'll be we'll be having that that after party afterwards. All that being said, next week, Ian Schulte, you better have your hats on properly because it promises to be a good one, and I'm excited for that conversation.

Corley: Then two weeks from tonight, we're hitting up Louisiana talking to Kyle Schuford, and you better bring your questions. It's going to be a good time. Enough jabbering from me. Let's get to the after party. Thank you. Once again, Dave Quick. Thank you for taking time out of you Dan, you're down in Texas. Took the time to come on the scrap and scrap and and take and fill the questions and absolutely crush the questions. So thank you for that. We left enough stuff on the table. We're gonna have to schedule another one. So that's always a good thing. thank you Dave Quigg: I appreciate the opportunity, Corley. It's always nice to see you. Corley: Audience, you make the scrap magical each and every week. It would not exist without you. Thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. This job will never be safe. So stay smart out there