Weekly Scrap #269 - Dale Jenkins, The Fire Service: Then and Now

Corley: Corley Moore coming at you. Wanted to talk very briefly before the scrap starts tonight. And if you know me, you know that I love the vigilantes. I love the like-minded souls and I'm always looking for ways that we can have more interaction. One of the things that every vigilante says when they join is they're looking to connect with those like-minded souls. They're looking to connect with other vigilantes and people who feel the way they feel. And so I'm constantly looking for ways to make that happen. So far, I love Patreon. I love Patreon for bringing us together, but it hasn't created that the the ability to share information and things the way I wanted. But one thing we did discover was that Discord is integrated into Patreon. So we've been working for the last couple weeks to launch a Discord server where the vigilantes can get together and hang out. Now I'll be the first person to say I am not a tech guru. I'm much better at forcing doors and and hooking ceiling. I'm better at destroying stuff than I am at using technology. But that being said, Discord has so many. options that look like they could be phenomenal for the vigilantes and and for our growth and for the fellowship and the camaraderie that we want to share. It's got chat rooms that you can post in. separated by category where we can have great discussions. It's got voice channels you can jump in and have voice discussions with people at the drop of a hat without any without needing to start a a zoom call or anything. You just drop in and drop out. You can share screens. We have plans. people have plans to share classes that they've built so they can get feedback before they go and teach I mean there's so much that could be used for this Discord server and we're just scratching the surface. So get in, come be a part of it, man. It looks to be an incredible platform, and if you want to be a part of it Head over to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. Become a part, man. If you're not a vigilante, why not? five bucks a month. You I it you can't even afford a fancy coffee nowadays for five bucks. So five bucks a month, you're you're a member of the like like-minded souls.

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Corley: Corley Moore, it is weekly scrap number 269. My guest tonight is Dale Jenkins. He entered the Houston Fire Department in 1978. After the Academy, he was assigned to Station 7, at the time the busiest station in the city. Over his four decades in the fire service, he worked on many rigs, many capacities. He spent five years in the safety officer position, overseeing one-third of the city of Houston. He retired after 41 years in the fire service, walking out of the same door he entered all those years ago. He is a passionate firefighter, and I am very excited for our conversation this evening It is my pleasure to welcome Captain Dell Jenkins onto the scrap for episode number 269. Welcome, my brother. Dale Jenkins: Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Corley: I'm very, very excited. Is there anything I missed? Anything in the intro you would like to add? Dale Jenkins: No, you hit it all. Corley: Perfect. I love it. Audience, please get your questions primed and ready for Dale Jenkins, for myself. Sam is here. He will be grabbing your questions out of the chat. So Yeah, absolutely throw them at us and we will get to it. So let me talk about those beautiful sponsors of the show and then we'll get to scrapping. Let's lead off with the new one. When it comes to performance under pressure, you need equipment that won't let you down Make sure you use it, decon yourself. And with that being said, we got the sponsors done and we are ready to scrap. So here we go. My brother, you have you you spent 41 years in the fire service, starting in 1978, walking out the door, 2019 And I just want to kick it off and just kind of you go whatever direction you want to go. And I want to hear what you think of it, the fire service then, the fire service now.

Dale Jenkins: All right. Back then, of course, we made we made lots and lots of fires. And so we had lots of opportunities, but the thing that the comparison to today back in the old days I mean we everything we did was based on overwhelming the fires Kick case in point. First day I walked in sevens, the first one of the first classes they gave me was, hey, as a first lineman riding the right side of the engine, we're first in on a fire, I pull two lines, two inch and a halves. And so my officers, and and I followed this this my entire career. My officers believed instead of pulling a big line, two and a half, which we made lots of big all-wood houses burned back then. And the other crews have pulled two and a halves, but they couldn't get to the second floor. So my officers believed in pulling two inch and a halves with it float 125 gallons a minute and that we coordinated our attack. And so the crews that pulled a two and a half, they would flow if they had a fog nozzle 250, if they had a smooth board primarily inch and eighth, so 265. But we had maneuverability. And back then, if you had a two-story house, you got four engines, and so you could literally have eight attack lines Eight attack lines, some were flowing around a thousand gallons a minute, and we beat these fires into submission. And I know one of the reasons was because we would turn right around and make another one. So you had to knock them out quick, but picking up took more time. but we overwhelmed the fires and what I've what I've seen in the tran see I saw it change. We didn't really know what was happening But back in the late 80s, I was a truck chauffeur at Sevens and we we cut, that's all we did back in those days was cut holes So we make big old balloon frames and we get up there and we cut holes and we noticed that we needed to start cutting bigger holes. We noticed we started having flashovers that we used to not And but we didn't understand why the change was happening. We didn't understand. and Case in point when I came in, the the captains would take you in and they they would tell you to hold up your water and they they'd want you to watch a smoke And we hey we didn't have air packs on every position, and if one was broke, the rule was nobody wore any.

Dale Jenkins: So we did lots of smoke eating, and I wasn't a smoke eater, I promise you But the fires, they talked about the smoke burned more like diesel. And today's fires, the smoke burns more like gasoline, it's explosive. Back in those days, our biggest concern, the smoke, was carbon monoxide. Today it's hydrogen cyanide and a whole host of other chemicals. Today your flashovers happen somewhere you know around 500 degrees back in those days with carbon monoxide was around 1100. So The fires have become, they're not as many, but they become a lot more violent. And but what I've seen happen, it's not like where we used to flow 200 in fifty gallons on them, the crews are starting to to gate back. It's less water. It's like for a while we came up On GPM flow, when we when we got away from inch and a half and went to inch and three quarter, I think when we transitioned in Houston, I think we were able to then pump 170, flow 170. But I was always taught and always did we always pumped high pressure. It kept the kinks out of the hose. Speaker 2: Sure. Dale Jenkins: And and we were able to get in there and and overwhelm the fire But what I see happening with the new fires, even though they're more unpredictable and they're more violent whenever they light off I see this idea of comfort coming in, and I don't understand it. In the old days, only time we thought about comfort was when the fire was out and you got to take that hot gear off But it's like comfort, you know, we want we want less pressure. The GPM flows. Some crew, and I mean I got some crews in Houston still pump high GPM, flow 220 on an inch or three quarter. Oh wow. But it's the the problem is you have less fires so you have less opportunities to see how bad things can happen. But bad things can happen. And if you aren't ready, if you don't have the water at your nozzle, when things suddenly turn bad, and when I s when I when I'm talking about I'm talking when suddenly you're covered up in solid fire and flashover is technical. Flashover is just one way that that you can be covered up in fire. And we know we can prevent a flashover.

Dale Jenkins: When we cool the environment, we can ventilate more effectively, but you can't predict and you can't prevent sudden catastrophic fire events like wind change, sealant failure, gasoline, propane, butane. The thing is once you're suddenly in there and you're covered up in solid fire Your mask can melt in as little as 10 seconds off your face. And when your mask fails, well we know what the outcome is, right? Corley: Right. Dale Jenkins: And so you have to be It's not one of these deals today where like it was in the old days. In the old days, if we needed more pressure, we we could call for more pressure Today, when things go bad, you don't have time. Ten seconds and it can be over with. So you can't call your EO to tell them to bump your pressure up to where maybe it should have been. when you're suddenly covered up in fire and honestly you're not going to be doing that anyway. You're gonna, you know, you're gonna be trying to save yourself and The thing is you can pump more more water to your nozzle. You don't have to use every bit of it. If it's too much pressure, you can gate it down. I know it disturbs the stream some But you know, if you take a smooth board and you gate it down, it looks more like a vindicator. You take a fog nozzle, you gate it down, you can't really tell. But the thing is, if it's there at your nozzle, you know, if you're pumping adequate pressure to say flow 200 220 and you you're having trouble handling it well you can gate it down but suddenly whenever you're covered up in solid fire hey that adrenaline kicks in You'll never notice your flow in 220 GPM. That adrenaline kicks in, and now you've got something to work with Now as I know smooth boards are a little bit different. Probably the GPM needs to be down a little bit. I never But the fires today are just so much, there's so much fewer of them, so you get less opportunities to see how bad things can happen. But I can tell you, especially the five years I was a safety officer, and I took it not to get. less runs or to g I took it to make more fires.

Corley: Right. Dale Jenkins: And to have an opportunity for the first time in my career to to see what goes on outside now as a safety officer. I sometimes I was rooftop safety, sometimes I was interior safety. But my whole career, either I was on a roof cutting holes or I was inside fighting fire. And so I never ever had time to see what happened outside And I actually, in that five-year time frame, I made 257 good working fires, and I got a lot of knowledge and wisdom that I wouldn't have gotten if I hadn't been outside. And I know it it's it sounds bad being outside, but Again, I as a safety officer I always look for where the guys were in the most danger, and that's where I planted myself. And I tried to fill voids like if there were if there was a lack of slack pulling, I can pull some slack. And so the fires just don't give us the opportunities, and I believe that we kind of get complacent. thinking that that every fire we make is the way all of them are gonna be. And and all of a sudden One out of a hundred, it's not like that. And the difference between living and dying is what are you going to do in the next 10 seconds? So, man, it just that the changes came so fast and caught us totally off guard. if I if I can keep can I keep talking? Always all brother yeah that's the scrap you can let me tell you what happened in Houston. I mean like I said if we got a two-store and we made lots of big all-wood two stories made out of bull pine balloon frame and if we got a two-story we got four pumpers and if we got one story it was three In the mid-80s, say 85, 86, they came to us and said what we were doing, oh here's what the we didn't have incident command. And so the only time you'd hear a chief say anything, if we were if we pulled up and we had a big old two-story rock and roll, the chief would call all the engines on the radio and said, bring your water with you. It means catch you a plug and lay into the fire. So we would have four attack engines.

Dale Jenkins: And if each engine pulled two lines or pulled a two and a half and some of them pulled two inch and a halves, we would overwhelm these fires. But it did. It took, I mean there were times we we came out and you couldn't see asphalt from all the cotton on the ground. And They came to us and said what we were doing, this was our administration, said what we were doing was overkill. And I want you to remember this word, overkill. And overnight, we transitioned from four attack engines to one. One supply line, one attack engine. Now the rule was, okay, now you're going to have one attack engine if you need more crop cross lays, more handlines We went to pigtails and you could have your next engines break your line down and come until you you know filled all of your discharges And I don't know that I ever saw us ever max out a pumper. You know, firemen, I don't want to say, but firemen are notoriously, they don't want to put holes on the ground. Corley: No, they're efficient. That's the word, right? Dale Jenkins: Yeah. And And so we did this in saying 86, and this and the fires hadn't quite started changing yet. But they were fixing to. And in the late 80s, suddenly we noticed, hey, I and I gotta back up here, honestly Whenever they went to this first attack engine, what what it was was now the first engine went in on tank water And the next engine laid on the line and where I was at at station seven, we were first in on most of our fire. So hey, I liked it. I I thought it was a good idea because in the mornings our our apparat slab would be covered with hose to be washed. And all of a sudden, man, now we're not putting all the holes on the ground. We're just putting the cross leaves. And so it seemed good. And so the fire started changing in the late 80s. I promoted the captain in 91 and jerk transferred right down the road to station 25, making the same kind of fires, making fires with sevens And but man, we started having close calls and bad things happening and guys getting burnt and we still didn't we still didn't understand what was happening And I had a buddy named Ruben Lopez.

Dale Jenkins: He was a Houston volunteer firefighter and he would ride he rode with us at sevens and he would ride with me at 25s and he he lived a couple miles away and made lots of fires with him And December 6th, 1996, we made a house fire with the lady trapped and Ruben got killed in a flashover. And what happened was we pulled up first in on Niger 25 and our pump failed. We had a two Two-stage pump and pressure relief. Anyway, pressure relief valve stuck and it blew both of our cross lays in two right as the house flashed over and Ruben didn't make it out And this was 10 years after they implemented the hey in the old days we'd have had so many lines on the ground. We never, hey, in the old days, we never had Maydays Other departments had made these Houston didn't have maidies. We didn't have firefighters get lost. We had so many lines in the house. If a line blew in two, there were seven more there If you got lost, you were only one room away from a crew, and you say, man, where's Engine 7's crew? They're next room over. And then so we went, the pendulum swung from one extreme to the other overnight Right. Ten years to to reap what it brought on the Houston Fire Department. But today, hey, we went a hundred and five years and never had a firefighter kill inside a burning building in Houston. inside a burn bill. We lost a lot of them for outside collapses, car you know wrecks and heart attacks, but nobody inside a fire. And today we're at 14. I mean Ruben got killed and it just never stopped. The fires changed and And for the most part, my department never changed anything. Today I could go there and there's still primarily one attack engine. Now, I was a captain at 46s And we started whenever, I mean, man, by the time we buried I don't know, eight, nine firemen. All hey, and this is All first arriving engine crews except for the worst fire of our history, which was the Southwest Freeway fire where we lost four all at once and fifth Captain Bill Dowling later on that one they it killed the first and second arriving engines. And so But they're they're still sitting there.

Dale Jenkins: You have to have a redundant system. You can't put all your eggs in one basket. So what we implemented at my station, station 46, we looked at why all these firemen were getting killed. I mean five of them were my friends. One of them used to drive me And we looked at it and we implemented our own SOPs separate and apart from we went to backup lines, which are like interior writ lines and Second engines getting water supply and a separate writ engine. You know, it's crazy. You have a your first end engine and they're they're your writ engine. They got a line coming off it. So if the first end engine something goes wrong. But you lost your water for your Rick crew too. So anyway, we we made changes ourselves. And it's just no different to like on my truck We started cutting bigger and bigger holes. I remember the first time Travis Quinn, who was almost always on saws in the old days, told me that, man, we have to start cutting bigger because it wasn't solving the problem. Our holes weren't And he said, we're going to cut it as big as our beds, which were probably about four foot by eight foot and so well seven foot. And when I left we were cutting, we were always shooting for a nine by five The amount of smoke these these fires today produce is incredible compared to the old days. And so you have to stay ahead, but but I guess to sum this all up, you can't get complacent. And think that bad things are not going to happen. Because when they do, you zip them up in body bags and you have these incredible parades, you know, you set up aerial ladders with And it's it's just it's it's hey ever since I mean that's what I've been called to do is try to teach firemen how to stay alive. I teach rooftop safety and anything. Hey, almost anything else you want, except like I said, EMS or rescue. But you you can't get complacent and you have to stay aware of how how, man, a wind change. A wind change can be horrendous or pull it, hey, pulling ceiling on a pressurized attic behind an attack crew. Horrible.

Corley: Yeah. Dale Jenkins: I mean, so You know, we we can never stop being a student of the profession. And things, you know, as soon as you think you've got a handle on construction Somebody's out there and they done they've already designed something that's quicker and easier and cheaper to build and none of it makes it safer for firemen. Corley: I love it. I love that for an opening opening diatribe, man. It was beautiful. Are you ready for the first questions coming at you from the audience? Dale Jenkins: Oh, come on. Corley: This one's coming from Steve Mouch and no wait. I screwed I'm looking. Yeah, this is right in line with what you were talking about. In alignment with like Project Mayday data, in your opinion. Was it the sheer number of people you had inside the building that provided the safety net for you, or was there other factors involved? Dale Jenkins: Are you talking about old days or new days? Corley: The old days. The old days and the safety that that was there. Dale Jenkins: Yeah. It was it was the fact that we literally, hey The only thing the chief was ever concerned about was he never allowed anybody to go to the burn side. Everything had to be interior, unburned attack. And so we just literally beat those fires into submission. And So you know and that's kind of a double-edged sword because man I hated I hated those when the fires really got bad and you had a crowd I I hate to say that I ever left in a hurry, but I guarantee you when my butt was burning, hey, I could dock some guys out of the way, but you you know if you I'm sure maybe you've been in those I hated a crowded bad fire. But if it had a handle on it and we're making headways, it was great But man, it you know and the ones that were always so bad were the ones you couldn't get vented well enough and you had that super black smoke and that heat pushing you to the floor and You can't see your hand in front of your face and then it's all of a sudden it's like, man, time to time to get out. That's back before Before we didn't get hoods till 86.

Corley: Okay. Dale Jenkins: And yeah, your ears are your Anyway, so that that's a hard one to answer. it it depends on the fire, you know, enough firemen to overwhelm it, but By gosh, I will say this later on in my career, whenever we were only pumping, hey, I'd rather have fewer I I I really didn't like a crowded fire later in my career. I I wanted my crew and a backup crew and a search crew. I didn't want a whole bunch of people, depending on the size of the fire course. Corley: Sure, sure. Dale Jenkins: but residential. primary, you know, say 2,000 square foot house. I I didn't want a whole lot. You know, I needed those crews in there. When I was on our truck, you know, we were in there, we really cut we'd split our truck crew in the old days And two went in for search, two to the roof. And but it it it's really dependent on the situation. But be sitting there, that's a good question because I'm sitting here running fires through my head and later on absolutely there were times that we just said, hey, hulk, hold them out, keep them out Don't crowd me in here, you know. Yeah, so I don't that that may not have answered his question.

Corley: No, I think you're right there. I've I got one coming at you from Australia, Luke Stevenson. He wants to know, because this is kind of in this line with the same then and now type thing. He says, in your time in the fire service, what is the best change you have seen happen? Dale Jenkins: air packs and hoods. And better better gear. I'm sorry, I again I maybe I'm too general there. You want one Hey, if we hadn't got air packs for every position, I would have retired as a Walmart greeter. I was not a smoke eater, man. I worked with some, but I couldn't do it, man. It was horrible I loved the day when I would have an air pack. Hoods were a huge because other than that we always had, I mean you always had blisterdeers. We kept a big old jar of silver dean cream in the ice box And you come back for fires, you start slabbing it on because of all the blisters on your neck and your ears. So when Captain Clifford Reed invented the hood, the Reed hood in Houston, I was, I I jumped on it. Were you an early adopter of the Reed Hood? Was I what? An early adopter? Oh, I worked for him at the time at Station 35 when when he bought the first little five dollar hood at a welding shop and I bought it and then his mom sold she hand sewed one, I bought it, and then whatever oh yeah, I bought every up hey, I was a sissy. I'm sorry. Hey I

Corley: Hey, you're also the guinea pig that you were being tested. You were testing out the rehood. Dale Jenkins: Hey, it didn't take long to realize, in fact. I was at 35s. I had left sevens when I promoted and I was at 35s. And when I went back to sevens driving the truck, I took a hood with me And man, I took a lot of flack for it. That hood and we made two same night, two rip snores, one big old wood, two story And I mean I w I I was blessed. I worked with some studs. I wasn't one of them, so I got I just got sucked into their tailwind. But on this one night when we finally finished, I had my hood on and when we got through One of the one of the studs come to me, put his hand on my shoulder, said, where do you buy them hoods? And it was, man, it was it was so much better than than getting blistered. And you can think, you know, and and it was great. That there were probably I you know if we if we run the clock forward a little bit, I'd say the new hose, you know, now the new injected liner hose Well they came out with the first 1. 88 inside diameter hose, man. Hey, it answered so many of my problems. I could take an inch three quarter and put a in, well, I I might offend some smooth bore guys here. But I I would use an inch and a quarter smooth bore, make sure I had an inch and quarter ball valve and pump 220 psi on it and flow 325 and have maneuverability and kick some serious, serious butt. So you couldn't do it with you know that that liner that your friction loss is too high. I mean you could still flow good but But anyway, there were lots of changes, but I would I'm sorry. Do I ramble on a little bit? I love it.

Corley: No, no, you're good. What what was the pushback like initially on the when the air packs came You got to see those basically be introduced, yes? Dale Jenkins: Yeah, you mean well there wasn't a pushback at my station to put the problem was there were only two assigned to an apparatus when I walked in the door as a rookie. And the rule was if one was broke, nobody wore it. Well that the mask always broke that every time you'd you'd go to tighten up your mask, it would pop off And so we were always fighting fire without air packs and eye. I'm telling you. I I I was so blessed to go to Sevens. That's a long story how that happened. I was blessed to go there because that that carried me for 41 years what those guys taught me I actually thought they were crazy, but the first night at sevens we made two good fires and the first one we got back about three in the morning And I knew right then that whatever drug those guys were on, I wanted some of it. They were ate up with it, man. I mean, they were passionate about it. And you know And we had a great chief and great officers and great firefighters and Yeah.

Corley: I mean people hey vigilantes who are listening or everybody is listening. I need timestamps because I've been listening. I've been listening to the stories and I've written down two and I know I've already missed. So everybody I'm counting on you to to get the timestamps for me. Tyler Paulus has a good one for you, Cap. He says, what are the changes you have seen in today's firefighters that concern you for the future? Dale Jenkins: And I don't mean this in a negative way. I love them. The young guys are the future of the fire department. They are. But they come in handicapped. They're just There's so little mechanical, and I'm not saying all of it, but hey, I would love it when they tell me I'm getting a rookie from the country, from a ranch, or a farmer, or from the military But I mean I I had a 30-year-old rookie didn't know how to put a socket on an impact wrench, a square hole on a square peg. I had one that know and never mopped a day in his life. And and I was a captain On engine 46 the day, I realized that I couldn't have a guy walk in the door out from the academy and start teaching him fires. I had to teach him life. Teach him what a flathead and a Phillips head screwdriver was And and hey, I literally had seven of them. One day we were gonna wax the engine and I said, hey, we're gonna wax the apparatus. And I said, hey, I'm gonna go over to the chauffeur's side and start putting wax on. Somebody come behind me, take it off. And I finished waxing, nobody showed up. I had no feelings hurt. So I walked around to the cabin side of the pumper and I got seven good. Hey, these guys today it, one of them's a chief and the all of them are now captains. Good guys, but they're just standing around the wax the can of wax reading it And I said, what are y'all doing? And hey, they said, we've never waxed anything in our life. And they had their cars waxed and their yards mowed, and they worked a fire department or two fire department jobs. And mechanical aptitude, that was probably my strong point. I grew up in the country. I mean, I knew what a chainsaw and an axe was before I was probably 12 years old And but today it's and it scares the heck out of me because these guys will walk in and they've never used a power saw and all of a sudden they say go to the roof, cut a hole And they've never walked on a roof.

Dale Jenkins: And now you put a parasol in their hand and zero visibility on a on a pitched roof that they don't even know how to read if it's good or bad. And so It's not their fault, but it is their problem. And it's everybody's problem. They they have to be able to be brought up to speed because it's a firefighting still a blue-collar job and so you have to learn tools and how to use them. And Wow, did I get way off track here? Corley: No, brother. You I I I love it, man. It's great, man. You answered the question. No, it's now or the lack of knowledge they're bringing into the job is a better way to phrase it probably. Dale Jenkins: Yeah, hey now they're great whenever whenever you need hey like whenever I couldn't get my computer to work earlier. Hey, I learned where to use them. You know, I say okay, hey, I'll chop the hole. You you You do my run records for me because I can turn a computer on. So but but you know it it you still at some point you you gotta have mechanical aptitude and know how to use tools and and they get there. They do. There's still some man, there's some good guys and they're passionate about. I'm sure every everyone watching you right now, they're all ate up with being great firefighters And and and and they will be, and they can be, and they are, but it's it's a harder transition than it used to be, because in the old days, every firefighter had some kind of a job building how, you know. on days off their framing houses, pouring concrete, doing something. And today most everybody, you know, very few of them go out and do some type of construction job. And building construction is so, man, that's the difference between living or dying, being able to read a building. So Yep.

Corley: Nope. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Taylor Shepard's coming at you right in your wheelhouse. He says, Cap What would you tell a department that doesn't vertically ventilate? Not due to lack of manpower, but due to lack of understanding. What are some of the biggest benefits to cutting holes? Dale Jenkins: Who man, the biggest benefit to cutting holes is you it's you first off let me let me give hey the rule of ventilation is that wherever the smoke goes, the fire is gonna follow. Wherever the smoke goes, the fire is going to follow. And so the fire, smoke, and heat all want to do the same thing. They want to go up And if you don't let them go up, they're going to the area of least resistance. So if you open that door, hey, they're coming. If you don't vent, hey, I came up And again, I don't want to offend your smooth board guys, but I used a fog I came up using fog nozzles and used them. Never had anybody work on my crew. We didn't have fog nozzles. And we were taught early on you with the fog nozzle, we always vented opposite where we were going in. You had to because you're gonna you're gonna push steam and heat and and fire ahead of you. but we always had a truck crew going to the roof. And there were times that we were pinned down, it was so hot, no air packs. You know, we're hey we I came in, we lived on our belly Until we got air packs and then we got up on our knees and when we got hoods, we started standing and that had its drawbacks, I promise. But ventilation, it you if if you pop the top on that, everything gets better. you let the, you know, you you cut your hole in the roof, and now you punch through and everything starts feeding up. And so you you If you were to see the conditions and and and I'm gonna just try to let me paint this for you. In the old days, we would literally Again, we'd have it and that smoke is pumping down and you go in and you're trying to breathe air off the floor about two inches. And the it would get too hot and the captain would say, hold up, let the truck crew get the hole cut And you'd be sitting there and all of a sudden that smoke started going up.

Dale Jenkins: And I mean, it'd be quick. It'd be going up. And I mean like in about I mean, five seconds you could see the windowsill and sudden out of the cabin say, let's go. And you got up on your knees and you got under that smoke. Because wherever the smoke's at is where the heat's at, other than radiant heat. So when the smoke goes up, the heat goes up. And so then we would be able to move in, get to where the fire was out, put the wet stuff on the red stuff, and everything got good And so whenever you cut that hole, things are gonna get good inside. And it's no different than whenever a roof self-ventilates And I don't want to offend any chiefs because I know I'm sure none of them on here would ever do this. But in Houston We'd be in there taking a beating and all of a sudden that roof self-ventilated and things got great inside. And they would start blowing air horns and ordering us to go defensive. And it's like, why? Because now they got a ball of fire shooting out a hole in the roof and they're not understanding the interior. Fire smoke heat wanna go up. It's no longer down there on us where it had been just prior. Now things are good. And leave us in here and let us get this thing done. Now if it's a big old, hey, churches, man, that's another class. You got a big old open area that's different, but houses, man, they're you know 144 square foot rooms and It really but anyway, so it it if the question about cutting holes If you don't, if you got for whatever reason, if they don't believe in cutting holes, do you believe in using the fan? Do you believe in using positive pressure attack? Because it is, and and I'm gonna tell you, the day they brought fans out, I was a truck chauffeur and all we did was cut holes and they told us we were gonna blow air into the fire Never did it. Six months we had the fan, never pulled it off once on lots of fires, not until I made captain. And when I made captain, I just so happened I started running with the guy that taught the class And the first day I made a fire and he cranked the fan, I I thought, what in the world just happened?

Dale Jenkins: I couldn't believe I couldn't have run and caught the smoke And so the rest of my career, I I always let the fire dictate to me what whether I needed a hole or where I was going to use a fan. But both of them are extremely effective. But you got to get that heat, you got to control the smoke and the heat and the fire. And if you can make the smoke go horizontally, you're going to make the heat and the fire go horizontally. And if you You can't, and it wants to go vertically. That's always going to be your best option. But you need to be aware of being the rooftop safety, man. We've had lots of guys, the roofs today are not built Like they used to be. And OSB, which is almost predominantly, at least down here in Houston, your decking material and it it will disintegrate with heat alone. So guys have got to learn how to read roofs and sound roofs and so that they can get it done and get it done safely. Corley: Beautiful. Beautiful beautiful answer. Thank you for that. Thank you for the question. I don't remember who asked, so thank you for it. There's no soft tosses. This one's a great one. I want to hear your take. Chris Nugent wants to know, how do you recommend dealing with a truck company that wants to roof, but a department slash BC that is scared of the roof? No g no no easy tosses like I said.

Dale Jenkins: Hey, believe me, that that's a tough, tough question. I I dealt with one of those guys and I I would pray to God whenever we were on a roof cutting a hole that fire didn't come out of my home. Because the minute it did, he started going nuts and screaming and blowing air horns and orderness off the roof and cruise out of the interior. you know, and and and and honestly hey that's a that's a big problem for I think a lot of departments because you you got guys promote, they were never really good firefighters. They promote and all of a sudden they're in charge and They're not going to have you do something they didn't have, or most of them won't have you do something that they didn't have the guts to do, so they come up with excuses th that that is a you know, try to educate Man. Hey, I did a lot of praying. I'm telling you, because when that one chief is like I heard him coming, he'd be on my call and it was like, oh man, please God, don't let fire come out that hole. At least give us time to get off the roof and get inside and pull some ceiling or something because he'd just go nuts And want everybody out of the house and things that no different like once you hit that whole cut, things got better. And then you I don't know. Hey the same the same with the fan. I've wrote classes on all this stuff in the fan on my class. I ripped Chiefs for about two paragraphs because of the time we would crank the fan and everything got great. And then some chiefs saw the, you know, say the fire's bent out the second floor window four foot We cranked the fan and now it's venting out eight foot.

Corley: Eight foot, yeah. Dale Jenkins: Now we got great visibility, no heat. And all of a sudden we get in there deep and they kick the darn fan off You know, and then things get instantly worse than they were to begin with. that man, I wish I had a good I I don't, you know, I I it's tough because those guys too, so many of them are narcissists that they It it's tough when when you deal with the upper management and They're not great firemen. It's tough. I was so lucky in my career. Not saying I didn't run with some of them, but mostly. I never worked. for any length of time with anybody wasn't a great fireman. All of my chiefs were great firemen that I I worked under. So I mean try I don't know. Corley: You know what I'll let you off the hook because that is the question that probably gets asked more than any is how do you deal with a bad inept egotistical narcissist you know just that type of question and there is if you come up with the answer i promise you i'll write the book you just tell me what to write we'll be both be millionaires together

Dale Jenkins: Hey, I do I do know that whenever you go the next rank up, you get into them deputy ranks, some guys that you don't you don't work under, but they show up on your fire Hey my my chief chief hooker at 46s, he would tap the fire out and and send them back because when they showed up they'd go nuts and they'd ruin our fires, you know. he assigned one, we made a big church fire one time, and he assigned one of those deputies to watch a tree that was on fire in the back of that church. And he he spent the whole fire watching that tree. And Yeah, it's that's a tough one to answer. Corley: I've heard Mo talk about the hooker boys. So you were one of the hooker boys. Dale Jenkins: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, Mo we all we all worked for I I actually that was Fred Hooker and I worked for his brother, Carl John, when I came in as a rookie. And both great chiefs and and they really directed me in the direction we were going. So Corley: Awesome. I love it. I love it. so yeah, that's a tough question. And I didn't mean to it's there's only no one has the answer for it It's just, and if someone gets it, like I said, I'll write the book, we'll split the money. Chris Nugent is oh wait, I asked Chris, that was a great question. Thank you. I was about to ask it again. It was so good Hold on. Let me update. Nick Sabo coming at you. He says, Nick. What are some go ahead? I'm walking on you. He says, Cap, what are some indicators you look for on a roof for a no-go situation? Also, he says, nice elk in the background.

Dale Jenkins: What wait, what did he say in the background? Corley: Nice elk. Dale Jenkins: Oh yeah. Nick's a big elk butter. Gotcha. Yeah. Hey, the indicators. Number one, smoke pushing through the shingles and and I don't mean just a a couple places smoke pushing through because that could be a seam or whatever, but if you've got multiple spots that have smoke pushing through the shingles, that's a sign your decking is being compromised, burning away. That's what's gonna hold you up unless you can tight rope on a on a rafter and I never could. so smoke push it through the shingles is probably the number one and the second is sags between your rafters. Now sometimes you can make houses that that the rafters are on two-foot centers and they got three eighths plywood decking and it'll sag When it's brand new. Right. But you have to read the roof. But if if if you got sags, and and in fact Nick sent me a picture years ago of a real good fire he made where it had a real good indication of sagging between the raptors. But those are two, and can I elaborate here for a second? Corley: Yeah, always.

Dale Jenkins: I paid this you need no you need no permission. Corley: You elaborate to your heart's content. Dale Jenkins: Hey, we've we've had so many firemen up here in my neck of the woods fall in roofs in the past couple years. And and you know now every fire is videoed And so all these guys are falling in roofs, and there's videos clearly showing the roofs are bad. There's guys standing on the ground and and the the the smoke now I understand you go up on that roof and you can't see your feet because of the smoke, but if there's that air gap, the guys on the ground can see underneath it And so many of these videos, clearly the smoke is pushing through the shingles. And I'm sitting there looking at it after the fact, going, don't step, and they step and they go in. Now God's God has protected all of them except one in Houston and he I don't know that he's back at work. He he got burnt up worse than anybody in my whole career. And it was after I retired, but But on his fire too. It clearly the signs were there. And everybody on the fire ground ought to know what to look for. I I got saved on a big church fire one time because the again We were assigned to go to the roof, cut a hole, and you couldn't see your feet. You couldn't see the decking, and I I was sound on the roof, but my chauffeur, my driver from the ground, he could see the smoke coming through the shingles. And he hollered at us and hollered on the radio and got us pulled off the roof. And as soon as we got off the roof, I went inside to pull my crew out, and the dang thing caved in on us. I mean it would have we would have come all the way in from the roof. Now granted it didn't it I used to be taller prior to that because I wore one of them big pieces of sheetrock from about 24 foot up in the air. But it would have been horrible for us if we'd have kept going and my chauffeur hadn't known what the signs were to get us off the roof. so that was a great question, Nick.

Corley: Love it. And great answer And apparently a great elk in the background. Dale Jenkins: Oh, he got some better. Corley: That's why he brought it up. He just wanted you to mention that that. Stephen Kaiser coming at you from again down in Australia. We got back-to-back. what type of training do you have or use to increase firefighter knowledge of how to read a roof to increase their safety and efficiency? Dale Jenkins: I've got lots of pictures and lots of videos. And when I go and teach a class You know, first off, I I mean I talk about sounding and and what tools to use to sound a roof. because even in zero visibility, sounding is always your saving tool because sounding if you're using the right tool it'll indicate you got bad decking. But it's hard to it's hard to sit there and create a prop But it's easy to show the the signs. There was a fire, a captain in Fresno, California, probably been over 10 years now That fell in horrible, horrible video. But but bless his heart. I mean, it didn't kill him, but it ruined his career. But all the signs, if he if he had been able to just do a 360 and look at the roof because the video of that, from the perspective the video is taken, every sign is there not to step on that roof. The smoke is just pushing through the shingles. And if you if you remember, he steps and goes right into solid fire. So you can watch videos. but that's true. I mean if if I show you the signs and then you see it in real life, it's not gonna lie to you. Hey, one thing I will say about Australia, they're south of the equator, right? So if you're using a fog nozzle, you gotta you gotta whip it counterclockwise.

Corley: Yeah, all the water spins the other direction. Dale Jenkins: Yep, yep, yeah. Corley: Absolutely. Dale Jenkins: Yeah, and if and if you're in America and you whip a fog nozzle counterclockwise and wonder why your hands are burning up, it's because you're pulling all that heat into the middle of that cone, brother. So some guys don't know that. They learn the hard way Corley: They're gonna take it as gospel now, and that'll be Luke Stevenson also from like I said twofer another one coming from down under. Do you think that the chasm between the blue-collar needs for an on-the-ground firefighter and the white-collar needs of the modern officer is a barrier to helping bring experience into the management side. Dale Jenkins: Can you phrase that again? Corley: Do you think that the needs of the blue collar for on the fire ground? Dale Jenkins: Yeah Corley: is keeping people and the white collar needs of the officer, all the all the like you said, the computer management stuff and all the other stuff that you have to have to move up. Do you think that's the barrier to helping bring that firefighting knowledge to the management side? Dale Jenkins: I I don't think so. I think what the barrier is and and do do you do you know what the 95-5 rule is?

Corley: Is it like the Pareto principle or go ahead. I'll listen. Dale Jenkins: The 95-5 rule, 5% of any profession is passionate about what they do. Corley: Okay. Dale Jenkins: Five percent. Ninety-five percent are there to collect a paycheck. Now, this doesn't apply to politicians or lawyers. It's minuscule there. Speaker 2: Okay. Dale Jenkins: But so what happens the higher up you go it's like nobody nobody watching your show is a 95% of their all they're all passionate. A 95%, he's the guy that can operate a remote control behind his back with his eyes closed You know, and but he d he can't tell you where the cross lay what nozzles he got on the cross lay. And so the higher you go, it gets worse and worse. And and I'll be honest, until Mo got up in his position in Houston, man, it it was pretty much 95%ers. It was guys that were there because it's a pointed position and and they they're not firefighters at heart I was in Wichita, Kansas, and it was totally the opposite. And I'm telling you, I loved, I spent four days there with those guys. And they're small enough department that their upper echelon, their upper management are the five percenters. They're great firefighters. And it's unreal how it rolls downhill. I mean, those guys, everyone I met was aid up with being a great firefighter. And so a smaller department can can persevere in spite of but it something like houston it man i moe's got his his work cut out for him it's that's like trying to Turn a giant freighter with no rudder, you know. But but I've again I'll have to look at Mo hey Moe's great he was a great firefighter and he's gonna be a great he was a great chief. He's gonna be a great officer, assistant chief But not everybody's cut out for it. And if they weren't great firefighters, they're not gonna improve the department when they get up there up a higher rank. It's just the opposite. They shoot you in the foot. You know, they do everything they can to keep you from doing anything that would make them look bad. the guys that wouldn't ever go to a roof cut a hole, they don't believe in going to the roof cut a hole when they're in position of dictating that. And I think that was a question earlier and probably what one of the reasons that department, that young man asked the question about You know, if they if they didn't have the intestinal fortitude to get up on those roofs, well they're they don't want to now all of a sudden start You know, saying, hi, we're gonna go cut a hole because they're gonna somebody's gonna call them out and say, hey, well, you know, you never did it when you were on a truck.

Dale Jenkins: But don't don't do as I say do, but do as I do. You know, that doesn't f it doesn't fly very well with firefighters. So I don't know. Man, I'm not having many good answers for these. Corley: You're having some great answers, brother. You do not sell yourself short. This has been amazing so far. So thank you for sharing it. I love this one. This one's coming from John Velez. He's down there. In Texas, he says, what were some of your most memorable fires in Houston? And were there any major lessons learned from them? That's a very broad question. So you can go whatever direction you want. Dale Jenkins: Man, I'll I'll tell you one of them I had two 30-year-old rookies at the same time. And in Houston, we have an apartment lady. It's made out of 300-foot of three-inch hose, got a manifold on the end. And as part of their rookie training, I we had to train them on pulling the apartment lay. You know, you gotta train them on everything they gotta do. And it was eight o'clock at night And I actually had my hand on the apartment lay saying, hey guys, we're fixing to pull this apartment lay and the booper went off. We caught a run And when I got up in the cab, I looked at that screen, and it was an old folks home, a three-story nursing home. We'd waited for 20 years to burn, no fire protection system, had non-ambulatory people all over And it never been burning. But I looked at that screen and I looked back at my rookies and I said, hey rookie, this has the potential to be the worst fire of your entire career. Hey, two lessons here. The first engine, engine 55, went on location with light smoke. Well, brother, five minutes later, we're pulling the apartment lay for the first time for real. And when we popped the door on the second floor, hey, it was zero visibility. And Hey, it was time to put your balls in a dump truck, brother. We had to go 200 foot down that that hallway and zero visibility. I had those two rookies. Now one of them he he didn't stay in the fire department the other one just made captain nice his name's roder taylor and those rookies followed me down that hallway and and we we our line was just barely able to reach that apartment, but we had trapped old people all over this.

Dale Jenkins: They they evacuated 170 something and rescued 13 off balconies. But it was pretty neat Because once we knocked the fire down, I'd kick a door in thinking, I'm man, we're fixed to make a rescue. And my crews would be carrying old people on their backs down the ladder off the balcony And now I will say this, my rookies, you know, had they're young and I was old and didn't get excited anymore. I knew what we were up against. And so they burned their bottles out pretty quick. So I had to send them down to get a bottle change. And when they came back up, a third firefighter off the 55's crew came up with them And I pulled rank on him. I said, my was out I was out of air by that time. And I told him, I said, here Podge, you take my pack down and get it changed, give me yours. And I took my rookies in and we finished doing searches. But What we learned from that was that you never know when when the booper's going to go off and call for you to know everything that you should have known. And and we learned that them rookies can do the job if you just explain it to them. Hey, they they deployed the apartment lay up them stairs. trouble free and they had never literally pulled it off the pumper up till that time. And I'll say this about Roderick Taylor, man. The next day we were talking about the fire. I mean it was a it was a memorable fire. Because everything went good. Nobody got hurt. Nob nobody. But Roderick told me the next day, he said, hey Captain, he said, when we opened that door, he said, that was the most scared I've been in my entire life. And you know, I thought, man, I don't know, I don't know if I can say the most scared I've been in my entire life that I kept putting one foot ahead of the other. Now we were crawling. But he never stopped. I mean, he followed me all the way down that hallway. And I'm sure I don't remember, but I'm sure I put him up on the nozzle, him or the other rookie. I wasn't a nozzle hog. I was I I firmly believed now take it if I had to, but I was firmly believing backing up your guys teaching them And but I was always impressed that that the most scared he'd been in his entire life, he didn't run.

Dale Jenkins: Because I think probably the most scared I've been in my life, I might have run. I can't promise you I didn't. So but he ain't turned into a good hand. But we learned that all that drilling pays off. All them throwing ladders pays off. All that pulling hose pays off And and we also learned that it and light smoke is only the tip of the iceberg, brother. because when they popped that door, it was zone. Corley: I love it. I can I could listen to old war stories all day long. Cody Simon says, Cap, first of all, thank you for everything you have done for so many of us. Can you talk about the kinds of things you are looking at when you visit a fire station that tell you about the crew. Dale Jenkins: Cody, yeah, absolutely. The first thing I look at is that hose rack. I look at that hose rack. If it's disorganized and all laid out, I say, oh man. I look at the floors. Not, you know, I look at the apparatus I went to visit a fire station. Well, I won't tell you where, but it was way down in South Texas because they had a 200 and something foot tower And it was the only one in Texas. And I went to go look at it and I walked in that station and before I ever even met a fireman, I turned around and left. I said th those guys don't have anything at all in common with me and the guys I work with. But yeah, I look at hey, I look at cross lays. I I they yeah. Hey Cody, y'all pass with flying colors, brother. Hey, those guys were some studs right there, Cody. That's sevens B shift.

Corley: Okay. Dale Jenkins: Yep. Corley: Love it. I love it. Chris Nugent is asking, Cap, what has helped you keep the passion for all these years? Dale Jenkins: Man, the love the the love of the job. I mean Other than burying firefighters, the man, I absolutely loved it. I l I don't know how can you not have paid and honestly, I think I I stated earlier the first night I was at the station We made two good fires and and I didn't hey honestly I didn't know why I got in the fire department. I was 21-year-old punk kid and I I was tired of turning wrenches for a living and I got in and but I knew that first night, whatever those guys had, I wanted some of it. And I was so blessed, man. Those guys they rode me hard and made made me learn And taught me stuff that I'm telling you carried me my entire career. I mean, hey, we got we got run out of fires whenever our hose busted or burn into, but But we d I practiced the same thing my captains taught me that first time I was there as a rookie And we practiced it and did it our whole career. I like Cody that was just on there, hey, they're pumping high pressure flow of 220 and kicking some serious fire butt all the time at sevens All them guys over there seven some solid guys. So it just how can you not be passionate about I don't know. Hey when people's lives are you know it's people's lives are hanging in the in the balance and it's not just Man, I'd like to say that we never lost a firefighter, and we hadn't until 96, but I I just can't I I don't know how I could not spend my time trying to make firefighters better. I mean, I I rode it out for forty one years and I I left just in the nick of time 'cause I didn't want them young guys having to carry me. But I can still t I can still teach, pass on experience and and maybe a little wisdom and make guys better and be and I hey I love farmer I'm still I'm still absolutely amazed when I watch y'all in action It blows my mind how y'all get it done in zero visibility and high heat.

Dale Jenkins: and if you are doing it in zero visibility, high heat, you somebody needs to cut a hole in that roof or crank a fan. But But I know how it is. And but I'm just of any profession in the world, man, it firemen just amaze me And the passion, the passion for it. You know, all you guys out there that spending your own time and money trying to get better and How can you not be part of it? I mean I I just can't imagine any point in my as long as I got breath of life in me that I wouldn't be passionate about the fire service. I may be a civilian now, but man, I'm proud of to say that one day I I actually walked with some of those guys, you know, and worked with them. Corley: That's awesome I now Isaac B asked this question and I've heard Mo call it a booper. Now I've heard you call it a booper Is that a Houston jargon? Is that a regional thing? Or is there a story behind why it's a booffer? Dale Jenkins: I never worked anywhere but Houston, so I don't know where it That's that's what we what we called it, but you know, it's like you know, I'll talk about bull pine some places they never heard it. Hey, at one point I thought the whole country was framed out of bull pine. And because man the hey if do you know what bull pine is?

Corley: I I mean I'm I'm it's some sort of roughs on pine board I'm imagining but old growth pine. Dale Jenkins: Yeah, boards that were cut out of trees that were 200, 400 years old, and it's loaded with sap. And and when it heats up, it off gas and burns like gasoline. And brother There nothing smells as good as bull pine burning and nothing burns as good. I mean it's like gasoline port in them houses. And you know, they're solid. They're sh they're ship-lapping, so they don't col they didn't collapse And we burned some of them six. We had one off St. Emmanuel Webster over in Third World. We burned six times. Back then we had only three shifts. And So each shift literally burnt it twice and my shift burnt the last time and they brought a tracode out and the traco couldn't hardly tear it down But bull pine is is hard, solid, heavy lumber. You can lay it outside and it won't ever rot, because all that turpentine, that sap in it But I thought the whole country was framed out of it. And I went to San Francisco with my wife and it's framed in redwood. And it's like, man, what where's the bull pine? So Right over. Them old boys in San Francisco, I couldn't have been, I couldn't have hung. Those guys got them those wood ladders And all the that terrain that different construction and all that those guys have to be tough, so no doubt about it, man.

Corley: Firefighting is definitely regional. Yes, a lot of it is alike and a so much different. I like it. I like it. I'm looking for one or two more here as we're wrapping up. Kyle Piverall says, Cap, with all your years of experience. What would you tell a junior guy from the firehouse to the fire ground? Very broad, very broad, but what would you one piece of advice you'd give a junior guy? Dale Jenkins: Oh, the the first thing I'm gonna tell you is is defog your mask. You hey you can use dish soap. It's readily available. One small drop inside and outside. You spread it around with your fingers, let it dry. It doesn't take but about 30 seconds. Then you buff it out with nothing but fingers. on the outside you can use your hand. But hey, I I just taught a class and I had a lieutenant it up in North Texas that 25 years in and never heard about defogging his mask And he said, he said, man, I always thought there had to be some way you could see. So when your mouse fogs up, you're operating blind and defogging on the outside when you're in there where they're fighting fire That steam doesn't condensate on your mask. So you don't have to be using one of your two good hands to wipe it off. And so if there was one thing that, and I lead off every single class I teach with teaching how to defog a mask. as your number one. And then the fact that oh can I go on?

Corley: Always, man. Absolutely. Okay. Dale Jenkins: Then I'm going to tell you about how to survive on the fire ground. Corley: Okay. Dale Jenkins: So i if if you if your mask will melt off your face in about ten seconds. I mean it may be twenty. It but if direct flame contact there's a lot of variables there, but you know guys get misled They run these tests and they put a mask in in an oven or whatever and they say a mask will last for 10 minutes at 450 degrees. Well, a mass may last 450 at 10 degrees, you know, at 450 degrees for 10 minutes, but you won't. You can't, you're once that heat comes through your gear, 450 degrees is unfriggin' bearable. And so you can't. So the mass may last in heat, but we're talking about direct flame. And the reason I know this is I literally Have gone every time I heard about a close call, I go as soon as things calm down, I go and talk to the people that thought they were gonna die. And so I went and interviewed a rookie and five captains That all got caught in catastrophic fire events, survived, but their mask failed. Now, failed only a little bit. We got positive pressure air pack, so didn't lose their entire mask But I asked them all the same question, how long was it before you knew your mask was failing? And now all all six of them told me that first they smelt it, said it smelled like super glue And then they would watch it start to separate. And one the rookie told me seven seconds. One captain told me twenty-two, and then every other captain told me about ten. So I literally wrote an entire class called the 10-second rule based on 10 seconds, and it's about how to save 10 seconds. And man, I could talk for hours on that alone. But If if you're caught in a catastrophic fire event, you really have three options. One of them is to get out. And and if that requires you reading a coupling, I gotta warn you guys And I'm not, I don't care how you read a couple, but once you feel smooth, you don't have to feel anything else. These guys that are taught smooth bump bump to the pump I I go around and and I test guys and I have 100% failure from guys that think they they feel smooth and then they think because it says bump bump they have to with a gloved hand Find and locate two bumps.

Dale Jenkins: Well, we're talking about you're covered up in fire, you got 10 seconds, live or die. What are you gonna do? And all you've got to feel is smooth that it does nothing changes after the smooth. It's telling you you're going the right direction to go out. Hey, I know guys argue with me and everybody's brains operate different Obviously we're going to have an election in November 5th that some people's brains are totally screwed up. So, but anyway, so the couplings you gotta keep that straight in your mind that smooth will lead you out. Where okay, so you One way is to get out the others to get the fire off of you. I don't want to go into that, but you better be pumping more water than you need because when it happens, you're not going to have time to call for help. You're not going to have time to call and tell them to boost your pressure you better have already figured out what you're gonna do with the nozzle you got, or your only option then is to get out or the third option Which is cover cover your mask. And I learned this from a firefighter in Beaumont, Texas, that survived a flashover in 2007 and stayed and burnt for over two and a half minutes. And laid on the floor, clenched his hands, and his he said the left side of his mask still had flames, and he covered his mask with his arms. I didn't know at the time. I just heard that a firefighter had survived by covering his mask. So I started teaching my guys and other firefighters. in Houston to cover with their hands. And my own captain, two weeks after we drilled, Captain Todd Paget got caught in a flash oven. And covered up in solid fire, covered his mask, it failed, but he fell through a back wall and survived. But he burnt up both hands. They had to be totally grafted Well, the way God works, I end up finding out who Cody Schroeder was, this firefighter in Beaumont, and I called him And talked to him and he said, oh no, I didn't cover it with my hands. I was smarter than that. He didn't say that. But he clenched his hands. So what we teach now Is that you clench your hands, if I may, and you cover your mask in the crook of your arm, and it'll cover your mask.

Dale Jenkins: Because once your mask fails, you're done, brother. You can't inhale Superheated gases. And so you're going back, if you're covered up with solid fire, you got three options. Get out, get the fire off of you, or lay there and burn like Cody did And cover your mask up. Or like Captain Padgett did, he covered his mask up with his hands, but he was still maneuverable and he felt fell through a wall. So but you gotta keep that mask from failing because the fourth option is a body bag and none of us want it. does still have the green light? Always, always, yeah, go. And let me let me talk about where to get air. You know, because today you can't go like whenever I came in, they said, hey You know, even when we had an air pack, they said, hey, if you start running low on air or run out of air, you can take your regulator out and shove your mask into shag carpet And breathe through shag carpet supposed to filter the carbon out, but today the the carpet padding puts out hydrogen cyanide gas So you guys don't have the option of going to the floor. That's where you always want to go if things go bad. You want to go to the floor. But you don't have the option of going there long term. And so you've got to have options. Well, one of them is the wall. If you've got a sheetrock wall between every 16-inch set of studs, there's somewhere between two and five minutes worth of air trapped. on a a wall built out of two by fours, 16 inch centers, eight foot. Depends on how fast you're breathing. But you you have to drill on this. You have to there's a guy that invented and sells it used to be on firestore. com, a device you could unplug and it and his device you plugged in and it had a rubber hose and you could just punch a hole like with a halligan with the pick on a halligan run that hose in there and breathe the air out of the wall. But I never had that. I did carry a rubber 18 inch half inch rubber hose. Never luckily never needed it but without that, you've got to be able to unplug your regulator and first create a hole big enough that you can unplug your regular and stick your mask in there and create a seal and breathe that air out of the wall.

Dale Jenkins: Well the new Scott mask make it more difficult because of that But you can still do it, but it you gotta practice it. Now I I always used my halligan to pick on my halligan to do it or my pick on my pickhead axe Depend on what of course I didn't carry them both at the same time, but whichever I had, but you gotta figure it out before you need it. And so the air in the wall, hey, there were three firefighters in the Meridian Meridian Plaza fire, I think back in eighty nine in Philadelphia that died laying next to a sheetrock wall with air trapped on walls, but I didn't know about it back then. And they did they certainly didn't know about it. But if you know about it, it gives you options. And it's actually the better of all the three I'm fixing to give you. because a sheetrock wall can allow you to sit there, calm down, you know you're not going to die. And and I will tell you this: every one of these that I'm fixing to give you. It's best if you, you know, you've already called your Mayday. you it's best that you get them before you take your last breath of air. Because if you still have air in your tank, then you have options. But if if you've already sucked the last breath of air, hey, panic When you start when you don't and you've got to unplug in that smoke, panic is gonna kick in.

Corley: Yeah. Dale Jenkins: You know, panic will kill your brother. And so it it if your vibraler's going off now, you know, it today it goes off a long time before you're Out of air. But anyway, hopefully everybody's sucked the bottle down completely and you kind of know what you got. But you need to do it while you still have air in your bottle because it gives you options in case something goes wrong. But you got the wall. A P trap underneath a residential sink. In a city. It won't work in my in my house in the country because I'm I have a septic system. I don't have a sewer treatment system If you do it in my house, brother, you're probably gonna die because of hydrogen sulfide and methane gas. So, but if you live in a city where they have a sewer treatment system, when you flush a toilet and run, it goes somewhere else. But if you can access that P trap and do a lip lock on it, and it's hard to do. You have to practice. You have to take your mask off But you can do it on a residential and you'll be breathing air out of that vent pipe that goes through the roof. Now, this has all been passed by our hazmat guys in Houston who passed it by their scientists, and they said if your options were breathe. Today smoke or breathe what I'm fixing to tell you, what I told you about the P trap and the wall, those are certainly better options Now one that's easier but sounds nastier is you you mule kick a toilet off its base and you can unplug your regulator and shove your mask right in that pipe. And I'm telling you, we've Probably kick 20 off on drills, never ever inhaled, never put my mask on one, but we practiced accessing it The weirdest thing is I've never kicked a toilet off an abandoned apartment complex that I looked down in and saw anything nasty. I don't understand it. But God took care of us. He makes the inside look better than what I was expecting. Hey, now I will say this. Houston had a firefighter that just did this And I heard about it and I went to interview him because I thought, well, he'd been listening to some of my classes.

Dale Jenkins: And no, he hadn't, he never even heard of me And so, hey, but what he he I asked him, I said, what did he do? He had a a job on the side as a firefighter and got lost and running out of air And he kicked the toilet off its base. And I said, how'd you find out about this? He said, well, I used to frame houses for years. And he said, I always watch them plumbers run that plumbing. And I thought, man, that'd be a pretty good idea on how to get air and it worked for you. So you got the toilet, you got this the P trap underneath the sink, which today you can undo with your hand. You got the wall and if you find a dryer you can pull it out in that dryer vent. Now I'll tell you two things. If I find a dryer, I'm probably gonna keep chopping trying to find most dryers are pretty close to an exterior wall I'll tell you, if I chop in a wall and I hit insulation, I'm going to keep on chopping because most insulation, not all, most is on exterior walls. And So those are ways to get air that maybe some of you didn't know about. Again, the wall is by far the best because I mean it gives you so many options. You can sit there Calm down, you know, know that you and your crew are gonna make it and you can ru move down that wall and keep trying to find your exit, which I'd much rather be able to try to save myself than be sitting there waiting. Because on a P trap in a toilet, you're stuck. You're not going to move. That's your air supply and you got to stay there until somebody comes to get you On a wall, you can st I I'd rather be in charge of trying to save myself than count on somebody else. So Yeah. So anyway, that's I think that's all I got there.

Corley: That's beautiful, man. I and the people loved it. That was great. Great, great tips. Which takes me to one of my favorite parts. And I asked people, is there a book or a book that you think firefighters should read. I'm a big reader, so I'm always looking for books and I always ask this question. Dale Jenkins: Okay. Can I give you two? Corley: You can give me as many as you'd like. Dale Jenkins: Okay New York's forcible entry manual, probably the most in-depth Emmanuel and San Francisco got a good one too. But New York's probably got the best. It's got stuff that I've never seen, but it covered everything that I had ever seen so any building construction book would be good too. But I'll tell you the the best book that I ever read and I'm still reading it every morning, and that's the Bible. Hey brother, that that made me a better officer the last 10 years of my career because I fought God tooth and nail for the first 30 because I had a filthy mouth and I wanted to be in charge And when I finally submitted, man, my life got so much easier and it made life so much easier on my great guys that I was blessed to work around. And And I'm telling you, we talk about it today. The Holy Spirit would come all hours, day or night, and put in my ear what to train the guys on, and it was unreal We would literally be in the middle of a class and we'd catch that call. And and over and over or we'd finish the class and then that night we'd use it and So yeah, hey any of you guys that are on the fence, man, don't wait. My biggest my biggest regret is that I I tried to run my own life Made my family and my my great firefighters that I was blessed to work around made their lives rough. So hey Jesus is the answer. There's no doubt about that, brother

Corley: Right on. Hey, I I'm not sure. I think it may be the I don't think it is. I think someone else, surely in the 269, has said the Bible. Maybe just in passing or maybe not as ringing as an endorsement or a personal testimony, but I I'm not sure, but New York Forceable Entry Manual, I think that's the first time it's been said as the book. So excellent. Very good. Which takes us to the five questions for firefighters. And the five questions for firefighters, these are there's no wrong answer. There's only your opinions. And I pass out the points with the help of the audience to yeah, so I guess Dale Jenkins, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters? Dale Jenkins: Yeah. Corley: Here we go. Number one, what is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career? Dale Jenkins: my work ethic. I I grew up in the country and I always worked hard and never been afraid of it. That it probably if I could two would probably my my tools, knowledge of tools, because again, grew up with them in my hands. So Corley: I think those go together. I think work ethic is is a phenomenal answer, first of all. it's crazy that, you know, I taught I taught my kids, hey, if you just Show up for work and never call in sick. You show up on time, never call in sick, you're pretty much employee of the year nowadays. So if you have a work ethic, man, you're knocking it out of the park. That's it. That's it, man. I love it. Number one, max points. Easy, easy answer right out the gates Yeah, Glogovsky said the whole episode has been max points. Thank you. Yeah. Sam said it. He said thank you. Amazing questions tonight. Amazing questions. You guys threw it hell All right, number two, it's job town. It is time. You are in route and responding. You have to think of the scene from backdraft where he puts the cassette into that tape deck. What song are you playing while you're in route? To that job.

Dale Jenkins: Brother, I even tried to cheat and I don't have one. I No. Sorry. I tried to cheat. And if I told you one, I'd have been lying because I would have had to look it up. I just not a music guy. I don't not Not a music guy. No. Sorry. Corley: Hey, I mean you're allowed to be a not a music guy. It just gets you doesn't get you max points. Dale Jenkins: Yeah, I know. Well, hey, it won't be the first time I come out. Corley: Hey That's okay. I I appreciate the honesty rather than making one up. I do appreciate it. Number three, what is your favorite fire service tradition? Dale Jenkins: Brotherhood. The Brotherhood, man. Yep. Corley: Easy answer. Dale Jenkins: That's a tradition, isn't it? Corley: Oh yeah. Absolutely Absolutely. I don't know if another I think the military, especially combat, might be close, you know what I'm saying, as far as the the bond that it's shared, but I don't know of another profession that it's baked into the cake With what we have to do, see, respond to, share, uptime, downtime, good time, bad time. You know what I'm saying? And yeah, you know exactly what I'm saying. So Absolutely.

Dale Jenkins: And nothing builds brotherhood like trusting another guy with your life. And yeah. When when you're going balls deep on them fires and th th you know that guy's got your back and you got his and And you know those connections stay with you. They don't go away. That's awesome. Corley: That's awesome. Number four, this one is on the clock. You get one minute to answer. We had to put a clock on it because people would just keep keep on, keep on, and keep on with honorable mentions. But you get four people to put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service. Dale Jenkins: Ruben Lopez, Grady Burke, Jay Yonke, and Iron Bill Dowling. All four of those gave their lives for the fire service. Th two of them trying to save victims. So. Corley: I don't know if I don't Sam, what's the time on it? I'm sorry. Ten seconds? I we there's some people are so fast they they compete for the record. I don't know if you even knew that existed, but that was very, very fast. And that was an awesome Awesome Mount Rushmore. Max points. Easy max points. The final question. The question that's been around since I first started asking them. There's heavy fire. What did you call it? A rip snorter? Rip snorter. Rip snorter. Heavy fire. And there is searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in doing that VES?

Dale Jenkins: This. First in this. Yeah. Corley: E easy, easy. Not even I wonder because you spend a lot of time on engines, a lot of time on trucks. Dale Jenkins: So I was I loved it both. I mean I was 16 years on an engine and eighteen on a truck and I loved them both. But man, there's nothing there is nothing like go hey and and One of my buddies, when I was a rookie, taught me that. We went we bailed into one like that, doing vests. And when we were done, he said, hey, don't you feel like Joe Badbuck, you know? I said, what do you mean? He said, hey, them guys on the pumper, man, they had water. We were going in nothing with had our hand tools, went in and do a search and Ever since then, yeah, they going in, yeah. It's all about that adrenaline rush and that opportunity, man Hey, I I I witnessed some guys in Houston do some incredible vests when I was a safety officer. Chris Sillman, 51s and then man, those guys. Yeah, there's a bunch of good guys. There's great firemen all over the country, man. I'm just glad that I got an opportunity just to even talk to someone

Corley: That is awesome. Great answer. And that officially with that makes it four for five with the honesty. Four for five on the max points. And that officially puts 269 scraps in the books. My brother, Dell Jenkins, thank you for sharing and spending your evening with us. If someone wants to get a hold of you for more info, talk to you, talk about classes or a tip you passed on, what's the best way to do so? Dale Jenkins: Yeah, I would say messenger. I'm on Facebook just under Dale Jenkins And just probably messenger. Perfect. Have patience though. I'm electronically challenged. I might have to get Corley to come figure out how to open messenger. Corley: for me but i'm the wrong person to ask you can anybody who knows the scrap knows i'm the wrong person when it comes to electronics patreon go to patreon. com join the vigilantes the vigilantes they're amazing we have the discord server it's popping and and lots going on there we are constantly hanging out there and there's a lot going on also one of the cool parts is you get to go to the after party where we get to go and roast Dale Jenkins for his five question answers, his different things throughout the night. But so Sam is gonna be posting that link Cap has agreed to graciously come and hang out with us for the 20 minutes. You don't want to miss that. Coming up on the scrap, here we go Next week on October 30th. So a little bit of a delay, but on Wednesday, October 30th, Frank Lieb is coming on with Billy Goldfeder, and it's going to be mega scrap foxtrot. Mega Scrap Foxtrot and they're gonna be discussing their book, 30 Fires, you must know. There's gonna be other guests that come on that are from those 30 fires you must know. I don't know which guest yet, but it's mega scrap boxtrot. So I wanted to get that out there so you know about it. After that, it's Chief Mike Lombardo. So you got Dell Jenkins, the mega scrap foxtrot, then Mike Lombardo. Boom, boom, boom. And then there's something called an election coming up in November. And that's right after Mike Lombardo. So there's something important in November. Mike Lombardo's going to be on the scrap. so hold on tight. Because the scrap is heading on down the rails.

Corley: All right, enough jabbering for me. Let's get to the after party. Thank you once again, Dale Jenkins, for spending your evening with us. Dale Jenkins: Thank you for the opportunity. Corley: Audience, you know how much I love you. You know how much I appreciate you coming in and sharing your evening with us and the guest, and most of all, for asking the amazing questions You make the scrap magical. It does not happen without you. Thank you for tuning in live. I love you all. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. Everyone, stay safe out there.