Weekly Scrap #290 - Nick Papa on Impacting the Culture

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Speaker 2: Reach us at 8 Four four five five Towers or info at affordable drilltowers. com. Corley: Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance, it is weekly scrap number two ninety My guest tonight is Nick Papa. First and foremost, he is a husband and father of two, as well as a second generation firefighter. He is a captain with the New Britain, Connecticut Fire Department, where he has served for 17 years. Presently assigned as the drill master of the training division, Nick entered the fire service in two thousand three, volunteering until his appointment at New Britain He is a fire engineering, best-selling author, an FDIC advisory board member and instructor, as well as an FSRI technical panelist for the study on coordinated fire attack. He is also the founder of Fireside Training, LLC. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome him back on the scrap for episode number 290. Welcome back, Nicholas Papa. Nick Papa: Thanks, Corley. It's glad to be back. Corley: I am looking forward to it. We were talking even before we went live. Last time you were on, you talked we were talking about Steal My Soldier's Hearts, one of my all-time favorite books that you suggested. So and just going down memory lane and I love it. is there anything I need to add or anything I forgot, anything you would like to add to the introduction? Not at all. That's that's plenty. Always the same, but I do want to ask audience, please get your questions primed and ready for Nick. It's gonna have fun. Sam is watching the chat. As always, and he will throw the questions that you guys put into the file so I can throw them at Nick. So with all that being said, let's do the sponsors so we can get to scrapping. And then last but not least, one of my favorite people on the planet. Insight Fire Training, Thermography, Thermography Certified Fire Service Professionals. Insight Fire Training specializes in training individuals across the globe in the tactical use of thermal imaging cameras in emergency services. Insight Fire Training develops the world's first thermography-based collegiate firefighter certification and trains firefighters, manufacturers, and industrial professionals across the globe. And I love Andy Starnes. So all that being said. We got the sponsors done. We are ready to throw questions at Nick. Let me catch you up with the audience here because there are so many.

Corley: There's lots of people fighting for front row seats. They're getting settled in There's some let's go with a lot of fires from Jim Platt. Rob Fisher said, hi, my name is Rob, and I love ventilation operations on the fire ground. There's some rocker horns, some thumbs up, a lot of rocker horns. Steve Mount said excited for tonight. I wonder if he'll talk about ventilation. Candace Ashby's in the house, Rob Fisher's in the house, McGinnis in the house, Dragon's Den. Oh, but your brother, it's gonna be a good one. So get your questions in. Here we go. We're gonna lead off and talk. You Last time you were here, of course, we focused on coordinated ventilation. We focused on you as an author and instructor and your job as a captain. But now you are the drill master of the training division and you are in charge of so much. But I want to talk about making an impact in an organization. And we talked on the phone, but I wanted to kind of give a broad overview of how to make an impact. That's just kind of the broad broad topic I'm throwing at you to kick it off.

Nick Papa: Yeah, so it perspective has changed quite a bit just in the the few years that it's been. So the last time I was on, was still still a lieutenant on NG One downtown And now I've gone to the captain of training as the drill master. And in between there, there was a I had a pit stop in an administrative role working we call it the captain of planning and research is you're basically the exode of the the chief and the assistant chief and you're essentially like to to to make it sound Corley: Okay. And I'm on my own. I'm flying solo. I hope he comes back. So we will how we doing everybody? Let's talk. I don't know what happened. I will no. I see him at the bottom of the screen. I'm gonna hit add to stage. All right. Got booted out already. Well, we did the welcome back. That's what I'll that's what I'll lead off with. Okay, where were we? Let's start over. talk to me about making an impact in your organization. You were the EXO, and that's basically where it cut out. Nick Papa: Yeah, so that XO position is essentially you're the administrative free safety So essentially anything that spills over from the chief and the assistant chief's desk that needs to get done or things that need to be researched for them for initiative that need to be rolled out. whether it's equipment purchasing, you know, grants, anything like that that that was winding up in in my my lap. Right. Which was an interesting perspective. It was The polar opposite of where I thought things were going to go for me. I was sitting on the cat the line captain's list, thinking that's where I was gonna be headed. And it's funny how what you think your plans are and what you're you're what you're hope setting life up to be. And sometimes God has a funny way of Telling you where you can you can stick your plans sometimes because there's a there there's other plans in place for you. And it's funny how you you can't see that in the moment and you can be resistive of it and almost resentful of it, but Yeah, because especially you know me like I'm sure plenty of others that are that are tuning in, like my heart and soul is on the line.

Nick Papa: There's nothing I love more than in pushing a hand line down a hallway and you know just being dirty and you know training with the with the crews and you know working in the firehouse. Like that's that's why I got into this. But you know there's It's funny when you talk about impact. My sphere of influence as a lieutenant on Engine 1 was the two to three people that were assigned directly to my crew and obviously adjacent the the four fire the four folks that were on the ladder company that worked out of the house that I was at. And, you know, obviously the crews that you work overtime with, but your sphere of influence is is pretty narrow. And, you know, while it it is extremely impactful, because I do believe that that nobody has the the direct and lasting influence as the as a company officer on you know some somebody's career. But when you look at actually driving change It sometimes requires you to go into these these support roles of these offline roles. And I know one of One of the biggest things, for example, to really drive this point home is the lieutenant on the ladder that I spent a great deal of time with, a good friend of mine. We were beating the drum so hard because we had gone through with some tremendous budget budget cuts and concessions my first few years on the job I got on an 07 in 2010. We lost our dedicated heavy rescue to budget cuts. And then two years later, the We were late with that contract. So we two years later we were back into contract negotiations and we lost our our fourth man on the on the engine companies. So we got gutted.

Corley: Yeah, massive, massive reduction. Nick Papa: You're talking about nine positions out of our shift strength gone in two in matter of two to three years. So that was a tremendous detriment to our operational capabilities on the fire ground. To make matters worse You know, we would on a a fire assignment, we would get three engines, a truck, and the rescue, and the shift commander. And then after we lost the rescue, and even after we lost the the fourth firefighter on the engine, we never adjusted our alarm assignments. So now we're still trying to fight the same three-decker, six-family, you know, multiple dwelling fires with a fraction of the people. We went from about 21 on initial alarm to, you know, 13 working members. I mean it was a it it dramatic a cut in what we actually were were sending to to to these fires. And we were we were starting to struggle. You know, there was fires that we would have absolutely knocked out in the first wave, no problem That now you know things are taking a little bit longer. Well, manpower dictates tactics and you guys got gutted. Yeah, so we were just we were getting we were getting smoked. And you know, of course that We started beating the drum of, you know, just looking at trying to show that hey look at the numbers. You know, we're we're losing, you know. We lost three engine firefighters and three rescue firefighters off of our initial alarm assignment. You know, that's six people gone off that initial assignment. So we despite our best efforts and despite, you know, it showing on the fire ground with with outcomes. There was still this absolute resistance, and we had a very senior shift commander corps. our deputies were all 30 plus year members, all solid chief officers, but The problem was is the culture within our department that was traditionally that calling for the second ladder or calling that second alarm was almost like a a badge of dishonor.

Corley: Like it was almost like you lost your throwing in the tab. Nick Papa: Yeah. You had to call for help. And then on top of that They were very concerned about the the mythical second fire that was going to come in at the same time. They're like, whoa, what if we if we call a second alarm, then there's only two engines left in the city and you know what's going to happen if another fire happens You know, what do we do? We don't have another assignment to send to it. And the thing was, is like, well, why are we worried about the what if fire that Well st is statistically not likely to happen. And even if it were, your responsibility as a shift commander is to the crews that you're directing at the fire that is happening now And you know, that's your that that's your responsibility. It's the city and the fire administration's responsibility to worry about the protection of the remainder of the city. That's why they have to champion for additional staffing to fill that void. If this is becoming a trend and we can't, you know, simultaneously provide city coverage. at a regular basis. So at that lieutenant's level, you know, our influence only went so far. And you know, no matter how many times the conversation would come up, we just didn't have the clout, you know, despite being in in good standing with the administration. So it wasn't until that I took that that promotion to the captain of planning and research. And once I got my sea legs under me, I put a proposal together. I was actually in the fire officer three class and my capstone project I did on you know the these manpower shortages and the need to go to a four and two response model. to up our our response to by one and one. And I did you know all the research and you know I one day I walked into the office, the this assistant chief of operations walked in and I said, Chief, I was like, I have my first pet project for you. And he smiles and turns and I slap a, you know, eight was an eight to ten page, you know, packet on in front of him, and he looks and I was like, I I I'm proposing the the four and two model.

Nick Papa: And he opens it up, looks at it, and he's like, okay. And that's snowballed into you know me getting to run with that whole project. And lo and behold, I think within four to six months. it got implemented. You know, but it took a lot of work and there was me being involved in a lot of staff meetings and having to, you know, voice my opinion in staff meetings with the all the shift commanders. So here I am, you know junior brand new captain and I'm having to plead my case in front of you know five deputy chiefs all with you know is more time on the job almost that than than I've been alive. Right. But it was really empowering to be able to have that opportunity and you know the assistant chief kind of threw me in those you know kind of Mr. Miyagi me on a on a few if a few times and kind of was like, okay, you want to do this? You're gonna do it. and kind of threw me to the wolves in a few of those cases to to make it happen. And it was an incredible experience and luckily it was able to push that across the finish line with the help of my old partner on the on the ladder and a few other people that that I solicited their input to make sure it was it was done right. And that was a for me it as much as I didn't want to go offline, I didn't want to go into a support role That and getting that initiative across the finish line alone was worth the detour.

Corley: The detour. Nick Papa: Because when you we look at how much that is has impacted our capabilities on the fire ground, how much that has increased our safety on the fire ground, and you know, just the impact it's had on the community. Corley: Operationally, just your effectively. And I know we just said let's not play what if, but if you hadn't taken the position and tried to push this initiative, could you have done it from the lieutenant's position? Possibility is always there, but probability. Nick Papa: I I mean I wouldn't have had the the the assistant chief and the chiefs ear like I didn't I wouldn't have had the the access to the the resources that I needed as far as you know digging up the fine the financials, the the the stats and you know getting all of the data to be able to Corley: And plus your daily duties also aren't are cutting in as yeah, no. Nick Papa: Yeah, and you know, having that opportunity, and you know, I probably wouldn't have taken fire officer three had I not been in that that that position and you know, had been granted that opportunity to go and it it it was kind of just the perfect storm of things coming together and I mean I I think eventually it would have come down the pike, but it's just a matter of like how much time and what would it have looked like, you know, in Because there was there was some some big resistance to it. And, you know, once I I kind of did all the leg work and just threw it down, which also kind of brings me to my next point of We all have a tendency to to identify the shortcomings and you know which the the the complaints, the gripe, the five the kitchen table gripes and complaints and you know the the good idea the good idea fairies of you know what you know what we could we could do better or but oftentimes these are void of solutions of actual pathways to make that happen they're just it's It's just kitchen table fodder and you know get gets taken by administration as as complaints and nitpicking or you know just not being not being grateful in some cases. Right. When in reality it the the one thing I I I will say of the things I've been able to accomplish it's Recognizing that there's an area that can be improved or you know some sort of shortcoming, and then having a very clear pathway of how to fix it or how to get to that desired end state.

Nick Papa: So that way when you come to the table, you're it's not just some you know you know empty claim that you're making. You actually have a leg to stand on and you have some some data to back it back it up. That's really what this all boils down to is when you when you come to them do your homework. And that's going to lend to your credibility as well and show them that you have skin in the game, that you're not just another squeaky wheel that is Making noise. Corley: Throwing monkey wrenches in and a complaining. Yeah. Just trying to deep progress. Nick Papa: Those are a dime a dozen. And I can tell you the administrative chiefs hear it nonstop and eventually it just beg becomes white noise and unless you are coming at them in a professional manner with a legitimate claim and a in a basis behind your argument and then a clear pathway of of how to get to where you want to go Corley: And and the spin out from that, it's not just that you're ineffective and that you don't you don't you don't get traction. It's also the person that's bringing it, the complainer Now is super frustrated because they're not listening. They don't get it. They forgot where they come from. And it's this cycle that feeds. And then and so yeah, I I love it, man. Actually, I hate it, is what I should say. But it's a great, great topic, especially that you identify the shortcomings and you focus on that instead of figuring out a solution, traction, and making headway.

Nick Papa: Yeah. So that yeah, that's that that's the key. And it it definitely took me outside of my comfort zone and it also it was really good as far as you know personal growth went because We have a a way of identifying ourselves as firefighters or fire fire officers and you know, riding the rig because and you know being a a a lion firefighter officer becomes a part of our who we identify ourselves with that identity and there was almost a grieving period there because I almost like I apart like I had to divorce myself from a that a part of me that had You know, I or I was a the the lieutenant on NG One for seven years, you know, that position alone. And that was, you know, very much a part of p part of who I was and I took a great deal of pride in that. So it was it was very painful to to make that that transition for sure, but I knew It was what I needed to do for to to make that that progression. And you know, I knew that there was things that I could do to To better the department and move move some things forward. Right. So it was that personal sacrifice. And also it lended to a lot of personal growth too, as far as you know kind of surrendering to. what your your purpose is and being open to the while the the door like the door essentially at the time was closed to the line captain All these other doors had opened up. and at in the moment I was it was like it was too ungrateful to realize the opportunities that were were being presented to me. Sure. I was having these chances to have these departmental the departmental impacts that we're going to you know be the stand this to stand the test of time and have a massive impact on on the entire job and not just my crew or my company. Right. So that I Very grateful for that opportunity in in having the the luxury of hindsight to be able to look back at that. It was I wouldn't change it any any other way. Even if I could go back and say, hey, you know, if you had the chance, would you and you had you you had the choice, would you go to the line if you if you could, knowing what you know now?

Nick Papa: And it's I would 100% go, you know, stay the course that I went on because the department is in a much better in a much better place because of you know the the things that that I was able to get be a part of and you know kind of put my hands on it was really great grateful for it and you know that led into and then again being a part of some grant writing and getting my feet wet with that opened up some doors for us and kind of led me and teed me up for success when I transitioned from that role into training because I six successfully wrote a couple of FEMA AFG grants that were for for train for training courses for professional development and you know we now have the the luxury of reaping the benefits of of that financial aid to now be able to roll out a lot of training that historically has not been we we haven't been able to afford that we haven't been able to offer to our our members on duty or Corley: Okay, so you set yourself I mean not you like you were setting yourself up, but The the the work you did there set whoever and it happened to be you up for success in the trading position.

Nick Papa: Yeah, and you know, little did I know at the time because that the my position now didn't exist. We actually just created this position about a a year ago It was contractually negotiated while while I was still in that other role. Because in the past we were historically just a the training division was an army of one. It was a deputy chief of training with no staff. Corley: Wow. Nick Papa: So in We had run our own fire academy two years ago. It was probably not long after I was on the scrap, is we our hand got forced We had traditionally used the State Fire Academy to send our recruits up to. That's where I had gotten trained. And they was never a problem. And we we would always send, you know Pretty sizable classes up there. We were one of the bigger departments that was sending our recruits up to get trained there. Where you know the other large departments were running their own internals And we had a class of eleven that was slated to go up to the fire academy and they couldn't accommodate us. They just didn't have the seats. So we had to hire 11. They could only guarantee us four. And it was a blessing in disguise because a lot of us had loved the idea of trying to run our own academy, but it had never been even talked about because Yeah, there's the financial obligation, the time and and and logistics that are involved in it.

Corley: Sure, the paperwork, yeah. Nick Papa: Yeah. Up to this point, it was never a necessity. We always had the opportunity to go to the state, and now that door essentially was was closed and we had a need and like they say you know necessity is the the mother of innovation so we administration said, hey, can can we do this? And one of my best friends, we got tagged and they came to us and said, hey, you know Do you guys think we can pull this off? And I said, yeah, I I think we could do it. So we ended up you know, from scratch, built our own curriculum, you know, using a couple other departments and academies as a as a framework. And developed our own and ended up rolling our own academy out. And that showed proof of concept that we needed more staff in the training division because You know, essentially when you know the two of us were were the program coordinators, and then unfortunately he had gotten my buddy had gotten injured, you know, playing hockey a couple weeks in. And It was it would very quickly showed the need that you needed not just a chief of training, but there needed to be a number two in there to be able to run to run these academies as the drill master when when we hired and then you know be the person to execute the training because chief of training you you know you're you're bogged down with All of the the planning, the budgeting, the scheduling, all the logistics, and then you need somebody to execute.

Corley: So then you need big picture, and then you need the 30,000 and you got to get down into the weeds. James Platt has the first question coming at you from the audience. He says, How did the change from the firehouse to the training ground daily change your mindset towards coaching and mentoring new recruits? Nick Papa: Well, the the train the training of the new recruits was was something new for me. I had had I've always been been into training and you know I've been an officer now for for just over 10 years. And I've gotten a steady flow of of new firefighters fresh out of the academy, but I had never trained new like recruits before. So that was a a first-time venture for me. I really enjoyed it because recruits are they're a blank slate. And especially we hired predominantly Civilians with no fire experience fresh off the street, and even the handful of folks that we did hire that that had some experience, it was almost negligible. Yeah, so they didn't really have any any habits ingrained in them yet. And I mean they were still pretty pretty virgin soil to plant in, if you will. And to me, that's the best, especially when you get to that's where the benefits of running your own academy comes in, because not only do you get to train them your way using your equipment and your facility with your strategies and tactics, but you also get to indoctrinate them with your philosophy, your culture. And that is hands down the most invaluable piece of it because w the w this book has been constantly mentioned on on the scrap. And I know after Dan Shaw had brought it up so emphatically, I went right out and picked it up. I had to travel and I was like, oh, this will be a perfect book to read on the plane I could not put that freaking book down. It was incredible. I mean I was just glued to it. I think I knocked it out in in like 36 hours. It was just like I Say the book. The Leg Legacy by was it James Kerr?

Corley: James Kerr. Nick Papa: Okay. Corley: Making sure we were on the same page. You hadn't said it, but I I I thought that was the one you were referencing, but I wanted to make sure and I wanted everybody to hear Nick Papa: So it was in the way that we set the acad the academy space up now. So the the the first the first time around was kind of a a a a Bit of a top s a top gun story. So if you know anything about the the origins of Top Gun, Top Gun started in a connex box in in in the middle of an Air Force base. It was like a bar napkin idea that a few guys had. They were on a shoestring budget. They literally their classroom was literally in a connex box. I think Jocko had the the really the godfather of of Top Gun who was really the founding father of it on his show and talked about it. He wrote a book about the origins of Top Gun and he talked all about this and it was incredible. You know, you look at one of the most premier, you know military schools or most premier schools out there at all. And it started in a damn con X box. So we started in a Parts room of our mechanics garage. Oh wow. We so one of our one of our stations, it's a single engine house on one side, and the other side was a two-bay mechanics garage. So we have our own our own fleet and facilities division. So the the mechanics bureau was was out of that that half of the firehouse So we were trying to figure out that's where the training tower is in front of that firehouse as well. So they're like, okay, this is where the academy has to be. Like what could we use as a classroom? So they had a big parts room that was on the corner of the firehouse And it was big, pretty decent sized space, and they're like, well, this is gonna have to be it. So two weeks before D-Day, we were literally hauling oil filters and air filters and you know brake pads out of the the back room of the the shop and you know turning it into an ad hoc classroom and two weeks later we were training recruits out of there.

Nick Papa: So we, you know, went from this really Spartan existence of sharing a space with the mechanics and to then flash forward this past June. The the city built a new public works facility and our mechanics got moved into there. They carved out a space for them, which vacated that half of the firehouse. Which now has been turned officially into a training division. So we got to we ran an academy this past fall. So in June they vacated. So we had about three months. to get that place converted fully from a shop into a full board training division. Corley: Right on. Nick Papa: And you know, thankfully I had Two absolute studs get detailed in to help me execute the last academy class. One of them was one of our plank owner and drill instructors from the first one. Gotcha. Guy, I can't say enough about him. He was a senior drill instructor for the Marine Corps out of the San Diego. So yeah, he had some three three combat tours underneath his belt. he was a tow gunner in an infantry unit and H the his unit saw legit combat. So this phenomenal fireman and he's one of those Both of these guys are the the rare individuals that are the trifecta. That engine truck rescue disciplines Doesn't matter what you throw at them, they're plug and play.

Corley: Nice. Nick Papa: And not only that, but they're insanely into the job and they are have an incredible work ethic. Corley: You're talking about the the quadfecta, you know, or whatever whatever facta you want to put on it. Hey, I got more coming at you because people are very interested in the the first academy specifically. Yeah, James James Platt following up said how successful was the Academy curriculum with the first in-house academy? Like the very first like Generally speaking, lessons learned type deal. Nick Papa: Tremendous. I mean, we've we've obviously improved upon it, but for the first go-around, I was pleasantly surprised at how I mean I'm the an eternal optimist And with the the people that were involved in in the curriculum development, I mean I got literally got to build the curriculum out with one of one of my closest friends. And who tremendous fireman, incredible instructor, you know, just a wealth of experience. And, you know, between the two the two of us and the other drill instructors that we had plus the the adjunct instructors that came in and and you know put their their expert you know injected their expertise We really were able to put together a tremendous product and it being able to teach it the New Britain way was really the secret sauce. and being able to indoctrinate them with the the beliefs and values right from day one in every step of the way. was really what cemented everything and allowed that this to be as successful as it was because by the time by the end of it These guys were so squared away and they embodied everything that we we wanted in our in our personnel and now you know, you're you're releasing them into the wild you know with this this strong mentality. It's not that you know, l listen, I had a a very good experience experience at the State Fire Academy. I went through during the the kind of the golden era of it where you know I had like most of my instructors were 15, 20 plus year, you know very seasoned, like some of the most respected, you know, members of the Connecticut Fire Service from mostly the big cities of busy departments. And I got incredibly lucky. Like the our our cadre was was top shelf. But the handicap of a generic state academy or a regional academy is they're teaching the generic way.

Nick Papa: They're teaching to the standard. Obviously they go these instructors are gonna inject their their experiences and their own little flavors where they can. But even still with that, you know, they're the tricks of the trade are great and they're extremely valuable, but The way that you do things in your department is is what truly is the most impactful and what's gonna be is set you up for success And what we were doing is, you know, our recruits would come back after 14 to 16 weeks because the academy has varied in length over the years. We would then have to indoc them for another month because we'd have to do they'd have to do their medical training and then they'd have to do two weeks of of you know, New Britain retraining, if you will, of hey, this is how we hit hydrants, this is how we throw ladders, this is how we're going to have to do that. This is how we stretch our pre-connect. Yeah. Exactly. Right. So now it's you you're you're essentially reteaching them all the fundamentals that they just spent the last fourteen plus weeks learning and you're all you're doing it in a very condensed format and now they're hitting hitting the firehouses And same thing. You're like, hey, kid, you know, forget everything you learned at the academy. We're going to teach you the New Britain way. You know, was like the common, you know, the narrative that was was sure given, but now we're getting doing it right from from the beginning.

Corley: And that's what Scott Chris Scott's asking, he said how much of the academy was big publisher material versus stuff that was original. General percent he said general percentages, he's asking. Nick Papa: so the the the classroom, you know, by and large, we we use Jones and Bartlett as our our LMS. You know, they be just because it was, you know, it it's approved by the state. their LMS is very easy to use. And It was very easy from a management standpoint, especially with the grading and the assignments. So for the PowerPoints, especially in the beginning, even this last time. my goal is to take the the Jones and Bartlett PowerPoint classes and customize them to put the new Britain spin on the Fire 1 and 2 baseline curriculum. So they're getting a little bit of both. But I mean It took a lot of freestyling. So when when I when we would teach, we'd have the slides up there. And again, like any instructor that's worth their salt assault can look at a screen. look at the the the key bullet points and then turn back away and you you freestyle with your own injacks. Right, right. And that's where we would put the new Briton spin on it is you made sure they knew what they needed to know to pass the tests and the the quizzes tests and then the certification exam, but you were also giving them the practical application of how it was going to apply to the street and also, you know, specifically how it was you know kind of New Britain centric. Sure. So that's where you really have to if you don't have the time to customize it ahead of time, you have to be ready to be able to provide the that customization on the fly. And our hands-on was very much our way. You know, we met all the JPRs, but it was done the way that we specifically do it. So

Corley: No retrain when they got out of the academy. Nick Papa: It was all it and in we and we did it applying our staffing levels too. Right, right. Corley: So the seven people on a twenty-four or whatever. Nick Papa: Lines were stretched with two people and you know you The the two the two person forcible entry team was forcing entry and then doing the primary search and you know dragging the victim out. It was Everything was kept to the realism of how it's going to be out in the street when they go when when they get assigned to a company. And that was my my my mantra and my my whole philosophy of how we design this academy was We want to give them every skill that they need to be able to flourish right on day one. And that includes everything from the roles and responsibilities. We were so diligent and deliberate about how we structured the academy that even so they had they were assigned a specific air pack. the training had its own you know EMS bag kit that all the trucks have. And they every day they would have to come in and just like they would, they would have to do a an SCBA check, fill out the same documentation, the sign-off sheet that they have to fill off in the firehouse. They had to do the EMS bag check, filling out the same form that they have to fill out in the firehouse. we actually gave them accountability tags, so we had a little table out in the bay that mimicked what the front cap of the apparatus looked like. So it had a ring on it where they clipped their accountability tag to. We had a little Chromebook that had our electronic accountability sign-in system in So we just switched over to an electronic accountability system that uses a electronic writing list to port over the the the personnel into the system. So they had to sign into that every morning into their squads. So we set up dummy companies that to represent their squads. They had to sign in. Every morning. So we mimicked all the the procedures that they would have to do in the firehouse. Right, right. From same thing with daily house chores We even made a a faux fire pole. I got a I found a two a two-inch copper pipe that was you know probably 10 feet long in when we were cleaning out one of the connex boxes.

Nick Papa: And it looked like a fire pole. So we found one of the fire pole pads that was left in storage and our one of our mechanics built a what looks like a fire pole. It goes nowhere, but it's a fire pole, so they have to do polish the brass on Wednesdays just like they would in the firehouse. Like they have to do you know police call to clean up the grounds they have to you know clean the the bay floors on on on one day so it's every and then the we had a a tool day So we always what's the thing we always hear about the the new generation? They don't know they they they're not mechanically inclined. They don't know how to use power tools. Corley: Real world application. And yeah. Nick Papa: Yeah, they're they they're they're great with tech, but they suck with everything else. Okay, well let's do something about it right from the beginning. So we got our own angle grinders and our own, you know We we have a a little workbench and a a shop with all the the all the necessary hand tools and power tools. And so they had You know, we we were as we started to fill out our equipment cache and training, you know, they had to tune up the the halligan bar, tune up the the flathead axes, they had to paint them with the the the company colors of training. And they had to maintain them. So they had they learned about how to, you know, you know, use the boiled linseed oil to to oil them up after they got done, you know, grind Yeah, just getting it.

Corley: Teaching them the real world stuff. So that that that yeah, giving them the ability to be success. Alan Gorgowski wants to know when it comes to final testing, are you tied to what the state dictates or can you do your own Because in his state, they have to follow training and standards. Nick Papa: you know we do have to follow you know the strict you know 1000 and one guidelines right which which isn't a big deal you know it's you you we we made sure that they they knew the standard we we made sure that we prepped them for the practical and the written certification exams. So they they had that that body of knowledge to be able to to pass the exams, but on but equally with that we made sure that they had that practical knowledge and abil and the skills and ability to be able to then translate that onto our fire ground. So that really wasn't wasn't a factor. It's You know, you're you're kind of organically doing that. You're just you know putting the emphasis on the way that that you do things and even following the JP, you can still follow the JPRs and meet all those that criteria while doing it your way. It's that that wasn't an issue.

Corley: Luke Stevenson coming at you from Australia, by the way, wants to he says your experienced firefighters and field officers, did they get involved in the training delivery at your academy? What what was the percentage involvement, or did you have dedicated instructors? Nick Papa: So the first academy class was a class of 11. this second one was of 10. So almost identical size classes So the it was, I was the the as the captain of training, the drill master. So I was the the lead instructor. And then I had two full-time drill instructors. they were both it they could they could have been any rank. We we opened we opened up the that opportunity to all all ranks. Anybody could have put their name in the hat. but the two that were were selected, the the first the first round draft picks, if you will will, were both one was a a ladder driver and one was a ladder firefighter. So both with you know just at the rank of private And they were the full-time drill, drill map drill instructors. And then we had adjunct instructors that we would hire for the high demand days. So the company operations days, the extrication days, and then obviously the lot the live burns were were the big heavy demand days where we needed the additional personnel to fill those extra roles. Sure. But that's where we would we would tap in. So we had other a second interest list that was put out of certified instructors that wanted to get involved at a like on a per diem basis just to be an adjunct instructor. So that's where we were able to pull in additional additional people to you know provide their their insights. And then you know there were certain days that we needed some of the line companies to come down to facilitate like on some of the ladders day days were you know we were using the the Bangor ladders or you know our final evolution on ladders day, we call it the ant hill. So you have ladders thrown to all different levels of of the four-story tower and going to the the aerial going to the roof and they're you know climbing you know i in and out of in and out of ladders on all different floors and you know coming up and down the the aerial and you know it's a good it it's also a good PT session because they're just just climbing up and down you know and and transitioning in and out of with you know full turnout gear and PPE on So for when we you know we'd bring the line one of the line ladder companies down and so that they're constantly getting you know they're interacting with the the not only the line crews, but also you know crews, the instructors that are coming in on an adjunct basis.

Corley: Right. Jason Carview wants to know with the success He's kind of shifting gears on you, so I like this. With the success you had well actually he's reversed, but with the success you had while assisting admin, are you are you tapped for guidance from the crews when they need explanations of a decision from admin If so, how do you bridge the gap that sometimes exists? Nick Papa: So one of the big the big missions I had with going into that role was the everybody talks about the the the Grand Canyon void that exists between the line and administration a lot of times. So what I felt like my part of my role was was to be that conduit between The frontline crews and the conversations that were being had on the apparatus floor and at the kitchen table, and also the administration. So to be able to Allow the administration to have their their finger legitimately on the pulse to hear what the concerns and what the what the the line was was looking for for support and then vice versa of all of also to be able to provide the insights to the line of where some of these initiatives or where some of the mindset behind the decisions that were being made or the direction the department was going in from the administrative standpoint. So because I would, you know, was working directly with the chief and the assistant chief on a daily basis, you know, I was privy to the all those a lot of those details. Right. So now I had that 30,000 foot view. I had the full understanding of, you know, and then also you're getting to see behind the curtain of you know, the you know, bureaucracy of of s city government and w you know, why certain things take s as long as they do and you know why things, you know don't just happen. You know, not only is it just the the financial implications, but it's also the the channels that have to, you know, that have to be followed in order to make some of these things happen, if they can even happen at all. So my job was to take what I learned by having that that sneak peek of what was going on behind the scenes and being a part of it. And now translating it back to them and say, hey guys, this is what's actually happening.

Nick Papa: This is why you know this is going on you know, they still may not like it, but they could at least understand the basis of why it is that way. so at least they can they can stomach it, you know, maybe be able to comply with it and having that that having the the understanding of the why. Corley: And how important was your credibility as the lieutenant on the ladder truck for so long? How important was that in both positions? Nick Papa: I mean it It definitely lended to to the the credibility because it you know I had I'd made my bones it you know as a as a firefighter and a fire officer. So I I you know came with with that you know street credit if we you will of having having done that and now I'm going into the the that that support role or that admin role with that that basis And that that's certainly helped out tremendously. And I just I'd gotten promoted into that role while I was finishing up that first academy. So I had also gained a lot of you know built a lot of rel relations with the administration having done that that academy class and you know worked with them to to stand that initiative up so i i was starting at a good at a good place Walking in from on day one. So that was extremely helpful. So it it definitely helps out. And and that really leads to kind of the next point of To get things done, it's all about relationships. Nice. You have to build relations. And this is where Especially as a new lieutenant, I you talk about winning the battles and losing the war and being totally oblivious of it. So the guys that I worked with, I had it, I I had and to this day have incredible bonds with. I mean, just the other day, you know, one one of the guys I worked with for for Probably he was probably the person I worked with the longest at when I was at engine one. he's studying for lieutenant right now, so he was over the house on on Sunday and I was you know prepping him for the for the oral board and You know, I would do I you know he helped me, you know, redo my my back porch on the house.

Nick Papa: And we're t we're tight. I mean there's there's n nothing I wouldn't do for that the for that guy. and Great like I have lasting friendships with with all the all the people and tight bonds with everybody that I've worked directly with. Sure. But the problem was is when I was a lieutenant, I was so hell-bent on making our crew the best. that that reputation was actually having negative implications for the rest of the department. Yes. You know, my reputation in in the company in the house was good because I was just emphatic about taking care of my guys. you know, making sure that you know we were squared away, that you know, building us up to be the best. but it was also was I was not spreading the wealth of I was so focused on engine one and in in our firehouse. that I wasn't, you know, taking that mentality and using it to support others. And unfortunately I was like, you know, our company patch was the Beaver Street Bandits because I was notorious for you know our our crew was notorious for beating people into their first due areas because of how quick we turned out and You know, we were on the you know, we've a we're a busier company, so we're on the road a lot as it is, and we'd be out training or out on the road doing building surveys or just, you know. Go just being around our district. So we were out and about a lot and a lot of times we'd we'd catch stuff on the road and beat people in. And you know, just from you know turning out quick and I was I've been I was blessed with having Incredible drivers that knew the district inside and out. So it's it wasn't that we were we were speeding and driving recklessly by any means. It was I had you know competent drivers that knew how to go right to the right to the edge, you know, while while you know keeping it safe, but they knew the quickest routes to get to get there. And that's you know part of was was part of the secret sauce too. But that that reputation and that that pride it came, you know The pride, you know, is it the pride cometh before the fall?

Corley: Sure. Everything has a cost, man. Everything has a cost. Nick Papa: And unfortunately, I wasn't spreading that that love around everywhere else. And you know, there animosity started to grow between other companies and it almost you know became the the image of It became being it came off as self-serving or you know, just you know, the having my you know the a personal agenda. Sure. Corley: Well and also you don't have the same relationship with everybody, so they're gonna make up their own. Story for why you're doing it. Nick Papa: So there was there there was definitely definite struggles with with other folks and you know people that didn't have a personal relationship with me that I didn't have. that that never got the opportunity to work with me. there was a lot of misunderstanding about what I was all about and you know the lots of accus accusations of having a you know, just personal agenda or just being being out for my own personal gains. And sure. That's to be honest with you, that was the other blessing in disguise about going into training is now Now the entire department is my crew, essentially. Now I'm responsible for the training of every crew on every company, on every shift. So now it's Everybody got to now see that that level of dedication, that passion, that support and love for the guys. extended beyond just my crew. It was, you know, it's directed at who whoever's in in my charge.

Corley: Right. Nick Papa: And Corley: I think it wasn't about making you look good. Nick Papa: It was exactly and I think that helped mend a lot of those misconceptions and a lot of that that helped with that reputation management because There's there it's no joke, man, that that perception is is everything is it. You can do all the right things and have all the best of intentions and be truly out altruistic in in your motives. And if but if the perception is otherwise, that's the narrative. That's what that's what what is the truth. So it wasn't until that I I, you know, again with these the academy classes, you know, it that started to really people got to see it on a on a on a larger scale. And then even more so going into training and then being able to work directly with all the different crews and now getting to support them directly and and building those relations relationships with with with folks, especially the ones that worked in you know, the outlying companies that I typically didn't work at and didn't interact with, at least on any kind of regular basis. And, you know, I took that same That same passion and that same vigor that I took to the fire ground, I take to the drill ground. And making sure that guys know and part of my my mission and training has been to dispel the the image that training is punitive, that training is just for checking the box and for this this this image of productivity that I wanted it to be truly practical that we train because we want to be good at our jobs. Right.

Corley: I'm bringing the mindset towards this. Yes. Nick Papa: I'm bringing you down here because I want you to be good at your job. You know, the the biggest thing you can do to improve the safety of your your crews is to make sure that they're good at what they do. You know, if the the quicker your crews stretch lines, the quick the quicker the searches get done, the the faster the fire the fire goes out. The safer things inherently get. You know, there's there's no better impact on safety than competency, because competency means that seconds get shaved off the clock and that the the instant gets under control that much sooner. It's that it's that simple. And that all ties right back to training. And it's just making connections with people. So it's finding whatever their niche is, whether it's making the analogy to sports. making the analogy to to music and it's all about practice. Like nobody worth their salt or who's even remotely good at what they do, they didn't they they only got there because They practice. Right, right. No, solid. Corley: Preach. I'll just sit here and listen right now. Nick Papa: It's all about the like the the craw the crawl walk run. Is making sure because You know, we had a lot of guys that were were unfortunately the system failed them and were neglected. And it's easy to point the finger at guys and to say that, well, you should know better. You should have you know, taking the initiative to to you know do what needed to be done. But just to paint a little picture, and this is I'm sure the the woes of a lot of places, but when I got hired in 07 There was a huge exodus because two years before that we had taken on first responder. Prior to that, I think 05 is when we started doing first responder EMS. So prior to that, it was it was a very senior job. And when we first went to EMS, we had a big wave of retirements, and then there was another one right before I got hired. And we off my list alone, which there was three hiring waves in a year and a half from my hiring list There was 40 of us hired in in a year and a half. And this and we were a hundred and fifty six person fire department at the time.

Nick Papa: So It's almost a third of our job turned over in a year and a half. Yeah, that's insane. So the unfortunate part was I was blessed and I got a great assignment out of the academy, and I've only worked at busy downtown firehouses Unfortunately, not everybody had that luxury because there just wasn't enough downtown spots for people to go. So for Many unfortunate souls, they got put out at slow out outlying houses with senior crews that were At best on the backside of their career, many of whom were were checked out. were or just they were in coast mode. Sure. And there was a lot of folks that just they weren't getting the trigger time because they were at a slow house. And during that time especially, your overtime was historically in-house. So now you didn't even get the opportunity to work overtime anywhere else. So you you weren't getting a lot of experience. These the these were all older officers. Corley: The mindset wasn't there to invest in you. Yeah. Nick Papa: So now you're you're brand new. You're not getting the runs in. Your officers not training you. To recipe for complacency. I mean it's and that becomes the norm. So now flash forward 10, 15, 20 years later, and now these folks are the senior guys, they have tenure, and now It's it's it's almost a double whammy now because not only have they not been invested in, they don't have a lot of experience, they've they're they're they're Nobody invested in them in the training. But now on top of that, you have tenure and people look at you at a certain level.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Nick Papa: Because when you look at somebody with 15, 20 years on, regardless of where they're assigned You tend to look at that person with a certain regard because of just strictly for being on the job. Strictly for tenure. Yeah. And now that that creates some performance anxiety because now They know that they're expected to be at a higher level because people view them there's a big difference between tenure and experience. Corley: Absolutely. Nick Papa: And again, that's that old adage of do you have 20 years of progressive time on the job or do you have one year on the job repeated 20 times? Exactly. And that was no fault to their own. And yes, it's easy to say that these like people should be intrinsically motivated to go out and have that self-discipline to do what needs to be done. Corley: But they were a product of the culture, their environment, etc. Nick Papa: Yeah. Everybody on this call that that's out that's listening to to this live stream right now or is going to listen at a later date. These are the people that are into the job, that are that have that self-discipline, that have that intrinsic motivation. But let's be honest, that's not the overwhelming majority or even a large percentage. Right. No, it's a minority. It's a small percent. Yes, absolutely. The majority of human nature is going to be you're going to You're gonna bl become a mold you're gonna mold into whatever the the culture and the norms are within your environment. And if the this is what you came into and this is what's socially accepted and this is what everybody else is doing and you don't know any better. Is it really your fault? Or you know, did this did the system fail you? So now it's trying to m basically dispel a those those myths about what training's all about, making sure that people know that we're invested in their growth and and making sure that they're to they're comfortable doing that their job and that they're good at it and making sure that we make it as as comfortable as possible so that way it's we're we're not bringing you down there to expose you right for what you don't know And that's where we're really starting at that crawl phase of let's just start at the at the at the ground level.

Nick Papa: Let's work the basics at a slow cadence, just going over the mechanics. And then we slowly start layering it up. And on top of that, with hiring so many new people, you put the emphasis on the new firefighters and to make it seem like you're being that rudimentary to focus on them. But in reality, everybody's kind of picking it up through osmosis. Right. And if you do it right, this was a God rest his soul, a legendary captain out of FDNY, John Viggiano, got the chance to meet him at a leadership under a fire event. And he threw up this little nugget too. And he said, when you're training, especially when you have a mix of senior and junior folks, You put all the attention on the new on the new firefighter and direct the the the basics and and the fundamentals at them to make sure it it seem like you're not insulting the senior folks when in reality It's all about the fundamentals, regardless of how much time. And that's a big jujitsu thing too, because the black belts are not doing anything fancy or or you know high speed. It's just they have a surgical level of precision with the basics. because of repetition. Yeah. And so you you focus on the new guys. Everybody's learning through osmosis. So the ones that are kind of at that same level because of neglect, are getting up to speed with them in in a way that doesn't call them out. And then if you're strategic about it When this is the where the Vidge said, he goes, you he goes, when you have a softball question to ask, you ask the softball question to the senior guy. That way it it's you know it's something that they could easily knock out of the park, makes them feel good about themselves, and it also tees them up to give a good solid answer in front of the new guy and builds their rapport with the new guy with the new person say, oh wow, that guy go that guy knows his stuff.

Corley: No, absolutely and that's the thing. It's like the the the legends, the greatest man, they were playing psychological chess, you know, I it wasn't a training session. They were thinking about all these aspects, man. Man. Exactly. Absolutely. Aspects. No, I love it, brother. I can sit here and talk about it. I want to get James Platt had some more. There's a lot of questions on the Academy, man. That seems to be a thing everybody. He asked, what the in-house academy, were you given direction? Go from the top. Or did you have an idea what you wanted and just rolled with it? Nick Papa: We had a a wide open, it was a a blank slate. Nice we got to literally build it from the ground the ground up. We I had a buddy from Worcester that sent over their academy curriculum. a neighboring department had just run their own academy for the first time and they sent us their curriculum. And you know, we had a few others that we were just kind of using as just kind of a framework to go off of. But we literally just, my buddy and I, we, we holed up in a in a conference room. for two weeks and just did nothing but draft a a 14 week training curriculum from scratch And then a lot of it was we we were just doing these these hands-on drill days on the fly. It was like we would, you know, that morning we would on the just throw down on the whiteboard and say, okay, you know, what what are the the skill sets we need to hit Who's gonna take what? And we just fell back on our experiences and what we taught on the line for however long we had been officers at that point and what we'd have been doing all along. And it and it worked. And you know, thankfully we were able to capture everything that we did. And we, you know, we were taking notes and refining and then You know, would same thing with that second Academy class we built on on the momentum from the first one and same thing. We've just been refining it.

Corley: Doubling down on what works, cutting out the parts that fall flat. Yeah. I love it. Luke Stevenson, one more time from Australia said, when you say that would you say, would you say that your involvement with training offers the biggest opportunity More than any other role in terms of steering culture and developing capability. Oh, there's no doubt. Okay. Nick Papa: There's no doubt. i it this in in terms of driving the culture you do nobody has the the the the departmental cultural impact as the training cadre especially be you know with us running our own academy because we're indoctrinating the next generation of firefighters. So there's one one of my favorite proverb, it's a Chinese proverb. One of my favorite lines is the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the next best time is now. So, you know, while the culture may not be exactly where you want it to be now, the way that you change that is with the next generation. You plant that seed in the academy. And how you indoctrinate the new recruits with what you ideally want your firefighters to be, what you want them to embody, those beliefs, those values, those skill sets. that's how you do it. Like the You know, I'd I'd been pushing the the nozzle forward stuff for for years. Like that was I took my first nozzle forward class and it was either 2015 or 16, and it been You know, bringing it back and preaching it ever since. That's how I trained all of my new guys. That's how we operated. But again, it's all well and good that Engine One Group A was capable of doing it. And, you know, a handful of the other guys from the other groups were able to do it But you you know just as well as I do if that not every fire is gonna be in engine one's first due district on a group A day. Right, right. But the way that you fix that is now in the academy. our entire week of engine operations is nozzle forward. So, you know, what better way to be able to drive that?

Corley: The entire culture. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. Nick Papa: In in even like one of the other initiatives. So when when I was a lieutenant on Engine One, I was pushing hard to go to the modified Minuteman. And Hit a lot of resistance because like Aaron always talks about for some reason hose loads are like talking about somebody's mama. You know, when you it's no matter right, wrong, or indifferent, the hose load is like the It's the firstborn. You know, when you think about changing a hose load, people get all up in arms, even if they could care less about stretch and hose. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean you want to change the hose load? And I hit a lot of resistance, especially from some of the more tenured folks. And It was they were all flipping out about, you know, pun intended about the the the whole minute man modified Minuteman and having to pack the nozzle section down like you're breaking it and Like, what do you mean you pack the nozzle down and you gotta reconnect and like they're just brains were fry like short circuiting? So I I was starting to to get Hit a lot of resistance. There was kind of a grassroots movement campaigning against it. And I had to hedge my bets. And I went from the single column modified Minuteman to I went to a single column flat. So it was like, okay, if If I don't hedge my bets, I'm gonna wind up losing the war all to altogether. So why don't I take the I I give them a little compromise? Ease the minds a little bit and say, Hey, this is still gonna be a flat load, but we're just gonna pack it in a single column. That way those of us that are savvy with the Nozzle forward stuff, we can flip the single column easily onto our shoulder so it's nozzled down and we can still do all of the nozzle forward techniques albeit not the the cleanest way, but we can make it work for us. And then it's it's a step in the right direction. And then maybe folks will start realizing that, hey, if we just pack it the other way, we don't have to flip this. And you know, eventually over time, you know, things kind of it got adopted.

Nick Papa: you know, the training wasn't as as robe nearly as robust as I would have liked. So it was never really The rollout wasn't really that that's that that successful, but it just eventually became the norm. And then we got a new rig. It was a a used rig that we bought because we were trying to get a a squad concept going. because to fill the void after the rescue closed, debris build our tech rescue capabilities. So when they were trying to To get all the pieces in place to try and make that play to get a squad company going, they bought a used rescue pumper. And of course, the problem with rescue pumpers are When you get the extra compartment space, you end up sacrificing your hose bed. So the hose bed is a is a train wreck on this truck. So the the guys, of course, you know, again, being adapt overcome and they were being innovative and there was a couple of new firefighters that were lateral transfers from other other departments that were really squared away guys that big into training and the my training chief who was the captain of that the who was the new captain of that company at the time you know, allowed the guys to start beta testing some things. And lo and behold, what did you think the solution was that they came up with organically? The modified Minuteman. So they start doing it. And of course the captain you know gets approval. He's to start beta testing it. He empowers the guys to to go full bore with it. And I'm sitting back and I'm chuckling to myself and I go, you gotta be kidding me. I was like, it's happening organically on its own So one of the days the guy one of the the the guys comes to me and he goes, hey, he goes now, check this out, not knowing what I, you know, we were doing a few years prior before he came over onto the department. And he's like, hey, check out this, we're doing the modified minute, man. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm like, tell me all about it. I I'd love to see what you got. Totally played stupid Right, right. And I just let him show me and I'm like, that's great. And I gave you know threw in a few injects and I was like, hey, well, why don't you try this?

Nick Papa: And gave a few pointers and with just kept encouraging it from the sidelines and A year or two later it keeps gaining and more like, oh, did you see this new host load that fives has got? It's great. Right. And meanwhile, this is some of the same people that were balking at the first one So I just sat back, let it happen, kept supporting it from the sidelines, and you know, lo and behold, it took damn near a decade. This was like eight, nine years almost. We finally just standardized the entire fleet with the modified Minuteman just last week. March one was the the the chain the hard changeover date. Right on. So that was one of those things where it was just like I you just sat back and I had to laugh and it was like planted that tree eight years ago. Corley: Not quite twenty, but eight years ago. Nick Papa: Yeah Yeah, those things just sit just sitting back and letting it happen and keeping my name out of it and just letting supporting the folks that were really trying to push it forward and And it was awesome to see and and finally got across the finish line. And then being now in the training division, I got to make sure that the training rollout was done right that resources that were there and now you know once the weather breaks you know we can really start you know to flow in some water and really you know, getting the guy spun up on it. So that it it had it not been for me being in training, yeah, I wouldn't be able to to have that that impact. And you know, I wouldn't have been able to to make sure that that was the curriculum of how we trained our new folks. I wouldn't have been able to have that influence to support these this grassroots movement to to bring the the Minuteman back into play and you know push it up the chain to the assistant chief and do to endorse it wholeheartedly and it it just wouldn't have been possible

Corley: Right. No, no, and it's Operation Trojan Horse, I think that's what Dustin Martinez, Chris Dragon Scott, they call it, is you train the recruits that way, and then they go out into the workforce and then over time attrition And over time it becomes the norm and it's beautiful. So it takes me to one of my favorite things, which is books. Because last time you were here, you ended up telling me one of my all-time favorite books, Steal My Soldier's Heart. Yes. It's in my top five now, without a doubt. It's such a such a great book. And I learned about it from you. And of course, you know, we talked about Legacy earlier, Dan Shaw, and of course that's one of the books that I reference so much. But book or books That you think firefire and I will say also I want to mention coordinating ventilation because it's a phenomenal book. I want to mention that because I'm talking to Nick Papa. If you want to know about ventilation on the modern fireground Get a copy of coordinating ventilation and study it and read it and become a master. But go ahead. Nick Papa: So this was a I'm always up for the ch The challenge, because I want to make sure that I'm not repeating books.

Corley: That is a big challenge. That's a big challenge. Nick Papa: But they've already been said, you know, thanks a lot, Jay Bonifield, for taking all the good ones. by the way, one of Jay's one of my one of my good friends. So I gotta bust the stones about that. I do have to so I'm gonna I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone in this one, Corley. So I'm gonna give you not only a guest recommendation, but a new a new book that hasn't been it just got released My personal mentor, one of my you know dear friends, retired ship commander out of out of the city of Hartford. Again, my personal mentor, he just wrote a book for fire engineering. It's called An Insider's Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer, and it's by Lee Shapiro. And I can't say enough about Lee. I wouldn't be where I am without his his guidance. And, you know, back when I was just a snot-nosed high school in, you know, the few semesters of college I did before I got on the job. A f family friend was a firefighter in Hartford and was assigned to Engine 10. And the company and Lee was the company commander of Engine 10 at the time. So he worked on the day after my buddy. So I became a fixture at engine ten and basically spent any free day that I wasn't in school or wasn't working my working part-time. I was there and you know the guys took me in and treated me like family and you know now being on the job and looking back at at the hospitality that those guys extended to me was I appreciated it then, but now being in their shoes as a career fireman and the amount that I was there and how and how they treated me like one of their own was I'm forever grateful for that. And that was a large a a large part due to the company officers of that that house that really set the tone and you know Lee being you know the at the helm for that. So That's where I got introduced to Lee.

Corley: You'll have to give me his contact info and let me allow me to use your name as the as the intro. So I'll get him on the scrap. Absolutely. Yeah. Nick Papa: So Lee was and Lee helped me study for the oral boards to to for the entry the the entry exam and has helped me study for every oral promotional exam oral board And if he's the guy when I when I have questions or I need a sounding board or somebody to talk me off the ledge, he's my guy. is very different because it is not the typical leadership company officer book that's going to regurgitate the same old Management principles and platitudes and all the this the stuff that you've heard a million times. Right. It sounds good, but when you're trying, but you when you have a legitimate problem on your hands may not be Sure. So Lee's book is very brass tacks of the things that you're gonna encounter out in on the fire ground and in the firehouse and how you actually navigate you know, those waters. So it's I I I can't recommend it enough because it is basically like Lee has taken all the the the lessons that he's taught me over the years and you know the mentorship he's offered to the folks that he's worked with throughout his career at Hartford and really just captured it in a very easy to read format. for for folks. So I know finding a mentor isn't always the easiest thing to do. You know, finding somebody that's that's truly invested in in you professionally and personally, especially if you're in a smaller department or it's not always you know easy to find and you know especially when you're you're trying to to really move the needle forward and or if you're you know when you're a new new officer in a new role and you know you're You've got questions and don't know where to go and you don't have that mentor, this book will really fill that void for you because it's, you know, Lee has taken all of his, you know, his wisdom and his experiences and put it on paper for for anybody to pick up and be able to to put to practice. So that would be my my my big one and then I'll give one other one other book is is a good one that actually hasn't been on the list, surprisingly, is One Bullet Away by Nathaniel Fick.

Nick Papa: is it it's a from a Marine Corps infantry officer and it's thick thick as in thickness thick, yeah. F is a box drop. Corley: Okay, okay. F-I-C-K. Nick Papa: Yeah, F-I-C-K. And it's not a leadership book, but there it's the book is riddled with leadership lessons in it. Right on, right on. And this this book is the what the The series, what was it? A Generation Kill. Oh, okay. That the Generation Kill series, I think it was an HBO series, was based off of Nathaniel Fick's book, One Bullet Away. So again, that another that's a that that series is phenomenal. And again, if you pay close enough attention, it is full of leadership lessons in it. So that's that I would definitely recommend that one for sure. Corley: Killer. I love it, brother. You know how much I love getting books, especially sorry, I'm I'm throwing the link to Sam there. Beautiful. Insider's guide to fire officer mentor. Say that long title again. Nick Papa: An insider's guide to mentoring the fire officer. Corley: Mentoring the fire officer. And he'll put the link in there. Yeah, he threw the link up. One's to fire engineering, one's to Amazon. And I'm sure you can find it other places. But there you go. The two books. and man, you do your due diligence because neither one of those has been on, brother. So congrats on on on that. going above and beyond like always. So after the books, I always love to ask the five questions for firefighters. You've been hit with them before, but this is version 4. 0. So it's been a minute. So are you ready for version 4. 0?

Nick Papa: Let's go. Corley: The questions as always, there's no right or wrong answer. It's just your opinion and the points are arbitrary, passed out by me with the help of the audience. So here we go. Number one, you are a proby once more, and you have to cook the meal at the firehouse. What is your go-to meal? Chicken Parm grinder all day. Chicken Parm grinder. Nick Papa: So I know that I'm gonna have to translate that. Corley: Okay, okay. Nick Papa: Thank you, because I didn't want to So that's Connecticuty's, you know, f Philly's got the the hoagies. New York's got the hero. There's this the sub sandwich. In Connecticut, we call them grinders. Corley: So okay. Nick Papa: provide that translation for the rest of the the country or the world if yeah if if you will so yeah the ch chicken parm you know a a good cot a good cot chicken cotlet some fresh homemade sauce, the mozzarella cheese on top, and then you really kick it up, cup kick it up a notch with the sauteed red peppers. on top or you can't go wrong or even I you know I pre prefer the sharp the nice sharp provolone on there and then you get the good Sicilian sesame rolls to go on top of it from the bakery Money. Lights out. Okay.

Corley: Two people said max points already. Gregory Van Ham said max point. Grinders are awesome. Which I never knew what hoagies and grinders were from the lunchlader way back in the day. Nick Papa: So that kind of so hoagies the the the Philly the Philly version. We call them grinders and then You got and my wife my wife's from Long Island, so her her brothers always bust my chops about it because they're like, oh they're heroes. Like what's this grinder, this grinder business? And Perfect. Yeah, that's it's funny how everyone's got their own little vernacular when it comes to sandwiches. Corley: Dude, I love it. Especially when you said the Sicilian sesame bun and yeah, brought it all home with the pepper. So easy max points out the gate it's and of course when you're talking food and firefighters, it's a soft toss usually just to get things rolling. So it's Job Town. This is one of my favorite questions I ask. It's Job Town. It's time you are in route and responding. It's the scene from backdraft where he slaps that Tape into that cassette deck. What song are you playing while you're in route? Nick Papa: This was so hard for me to take it to take down. Because I am a huge music buff and I have probably the most eclectic taste in music ever. So I was bouncing all over the place. And I will say It is insanely hard to beat the original. So Martha Reeves and the Vandal, the Vandalas, the saw that song is called Heat Wave from the movie. That that song is just it's like so perfect for that scene. It's hard to beat it. So I will say that that song that that song has to be on the playlist because Solid point. So is that what you're going with?

Corley: Is that are you going with the original? Nick Papa: That would be a cop out. I can't go with the original. But I gotta give credence to the original. Fair. So I was waffling back and forth because the first thing that popped to mind was audio slave coachies because that like build-up is so good. And then I'm like, ah, but then I'm like I I want that like spicy punk rock side of me to come out. So I was thinking bad brains, attitude. And then I totally went hard left. So I just wake just caught a first through you know bread and butter room and contents fire working overtime the other day. And I hit that like I was I was just in the flow the flow state for that one. I was just I had a great part part of it was I had a phenomenal crew. Right, right. Great driver. You know, Nasle Firefighter was one of the recruits I trained in the first recruit class who I have a great relationship with. So I mean when you're surrounded by good people, it's easy to be relaxed. Sure. And we it sounded good, came in as fire blowing out of the coming out of the windows. And it, you know, it's like the the building behind the Blaze Barbershop fire showing. So it's They're saying the building behind a building. Yeah, you know it's real deal. Yeah. You know it's the real deal. But I was in the zone and it's funny. I'm kind of stealing this one from Fields, but he's like, you know, all those songs are all, you know, high energy, you know, the, you know, pump you up and To be honest with you, in that moment, it just validated the reason why that fire went so well is because I was so chill. I was just in like a like my little zen state and was my energy my my Like my arousal level was like just right where it needed to be. I was in the sweet spot. So I was like, what song just keeps you so chill. And for me it is Otis Redding, Dock of the Bay. Dock of the Bay en route. Yeah. Okay. Just okay. to because because you think about it, I don't want to be amped up. I want to be, I want to bring it down.

Nick Papa: The fire and the the the conditions, everything else is going to provide all the the the amp up that you possibly need. If anything, you need to bring it down. and keep yourself in in that zone of that optimal zone. So for me, if I if I'm looking to mellow out, there's there's no better song than than Otis Redding, Doc of the Bay Corley: Gregory Van Hamas chimed in and said max points. He took it old school. On the chill. On the chill. I'm seeing what other people say. You got one max points coming at you It officially makes it. There you go. The invender. Yeah, I love it. There you go. One and two, max points. And Otis Redding is officially on the Spotify playlist. So number three, whose boots? Passed. present or future would you like to spend 24 hours in? Nick Papa: So I already mentioned his name before, but it's gotta be John Viggiano. I mean He worked in some of the most iconic companies in FDNY during their busiest time during the war years. I mean he's Started out, I believe he started out in 103 as a f as a firefighter, and eventually made his way to rescue rescue two as a as a lieutenant. And then was the captain of 176, but he was on rescue too as a lieutenant for for a bulk the bulk of the war years. And just tremendous individual, incredible leader company officer. He was a Vietnam veteran. I mean, just This this guy was I had the opportunity to to meet him at a leadership under fire seminar before he passed. And just the you talk about the the reputation, the legacy, the the impact that he's had on that department. I mean, he's still talked about to, I mean, not that he's been been gone for that many years now, but the The level that he's spoken about in that department from some pretty high-level people is still, you know, his name will be spoken about forever. Right. And, you know, just to be able to work in the companies that he worked in and during during that time period. To work in Brooklyn during during the war years, you you can't beat that. Right. No doubt about it. To be able to be in his mind and you talk about composure and command presence.

Nick Papa: The Vidge was not much bigger than me. And You know, the the guy guy might as well be seven s have been seven feet tall, three hundred pounds, the way he carried himself. Corley: Right on. Nick Papa: It's just you want you look up the word, you know, c the term command presence in the in the dictionary and That's John Davidge. It's him. It's him. So that's just to have his insight for 24 hours would be worth its weight in gold. Corley: That's phenomenal. I love it. Max point easy max points on number three Number four, you're retired. You're sitting on the beach enjoying my ties, and you get to hear through the grapevine what the people you used to work with now They're they're describing you to the new recruits and and how do they describe you? How do you how do you hope they describe you to the new hires? Nick Papa: So this is a two-parter. So the first part is obviously the The personal, yeah, like ego answer, if you will, is of course I want them to say that I was a good fireman. Sure. You know, that's the the highest compliment that you can get as far as your your competency in the job is to to some have somebody say he was a good fireman. That that's about as high praise as it gets. And but even more so than that the What would mean more to me it would be to say that I was for I was for the for the brothers and sisters that That I was committed to to making sure that that ever that people were taken care of, that I was invested in, and I I you know I I set people up for success. You know, that I I made people, you know, the a better version of themselves. Or say that I had a positive impact on their career. and and had a positive impact on the department. So that's where where I would hope that that my work ethic and you know the things that I did had a had a lasting impact on on the people that I worked with and for the the organization for the the future. That's beautiful. That's what it what truly matters. And when you talk about legacy, that's what legacy truly means is that you made the people that you worked with better and that you left left the organization better than you found it.

Corley: Oh that's a that's a great yeah a little soundbite right there. and yeah Dan Binner said boom max points great answer Yes, Derek I said max for the people. Beautiful. Final question. You've had this one before because this is the question that will never change. There is heavy fire. There is searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle? or first in on VES. Nick Papa: Nozzle all day. There is no no better thrill on earth. than to make be the be that first due hand line, making the push on the fire, and especially to be the nozzle firefighter, being at the tip of the spear and and being the one to actually put the fire out. That's it. I mean, that's what when you think about what the job of a fireman is, that's what people envision. It's it's putting fire out. And to to me, there there is no better No better thrill than making a good push on the fire and that satisfaction that you get from making that fire room after after you've you've made a hard yeah hard hole that little reprieve and as like the ste the steam and the the the the the smoke lifts And you know, just looking at the guy next to you and being like, we we we just did that, you know, and kind of relishing in the the the fruits of your labors and It's there's no better feeling.

Corley: Dude, that's awesome. No, I love the answer. And I like to ask them a question because I never know if your perspective has changed in any way, shape, or form. Through all the stuff you i i get it i get i like to ask to see so there you go that officially makes it five for five max points and that officially makes 290 scraps in the books, Nick Papa Thank you for being with us this evening. If someone wants to get a hold of you, more info, book a class, get with Firesight. What's the best way to do so? Nick Papa: so you can get a get a hold of me on social media, just my name Nicholas Papa on Facebook. Instagram is fireside at fireside training, or you can email me at firesidetraining at yahoo. com or if you Forget any all of that, just go to fireside training. org and that'll have access to all of my content, publications, you know, access to all those those different avenues. I got a bunch of free resources up there. a YouTube channel where all the videos I use and my my presentations are up on there as well as a couple of podcasts that I impromptu podcasts that I did with a few folks And that that's the best way to get a hold of me or or get access to my content.

Corley: Firesetraining. org. Yep. One stop shop for everything. All right. I'd like to ask for a challenge from the guest to the audience each week to get done before the next scrap. So Nick. Nicholas Papa, what is your challenge to them? Nick Papa: All right, so I'm gonna give a a kind of a short one and a and a more of a longer one. Okay. So the shoot the the the short, easy one is gonna be Go take a jujitsu class. Corley: Nice. Nick Papa: You want to okay, you want to work on physical fitness? get into a good positive community. And you want to work on your mental toughness and also your your composure on the fire ground. There's so many parallels with with jujitsu and and you know the mindset and the resiliency and the composure aspect and being forward thinking and dealing with an you know being in a fight with an adversary you know this This one's a human instead of you know force of nature, but it is especially being a company officer and trying to maintain composure and and for and you know that that foresight The jiu-jitsu's been phenomenal for it. And not only that, but it just keeps you in incredible shape. And the people in the jiu-jitsu community are just great humans. And I I love the gym that I'm at and it's been helped me grow as a person as well. So that's my short that's my short one.

Corley: Hold on, I gotta say, I gotta say six for six, max points. Jiu-jitsu. There you go. Six for six. Go. All right, go ahead. Nick Papa: And the last one is this is kind of gonna be a more a little bit deeper one that's gonna you know, be more involved, but it's my challenge is a a negativity stand down. So it's very easy to get sucked into the negativity vortex, which I wouldn't you know Bitching at the firehouse kitchen table, you know, even the the mild shit talking, you know, not talking about, you know, the the friendly, you know, the ball busting banter, but like when it starts getting over into, you know, you you're you're you just now you're just straight up shitting on somebody. Because it's it's easy to to fall into that trap or you know the the rumor mill piece of it. It's very easy to to have things go from just the friendly banter and you know the it things being funny to it just being unproductive, cancerous crap. Yeah. So my my challenge would be is to not only to to try and refrain from it yourself But also the the bigger challenge is to try and curb it when you notice other people are doing it too. So that's that's the hard part is it's it's much easier to to police ourselves But when it comes to other people, especially if it's you know people that are maybe more senior or you know have bigger personalities, it's it's be that be that bigger person and in and stand up, especially when it comes to the the shit talking And throw a challenge at them. You don't have to be this like, you know, big you know tough guy or you know, be You make it make this big stand about it. You can just say, hey, what have you done to help that individual? Or what have you done to help that person out?

Corley: Yeah. Nick Papa: You know, when you're talking about oh that guy Did you see how that that guy that guy couldn't you know stretch a line to save his life or did you see how that that guy you know you know fumbled in that drill or you know This guy didn't perform well at that fire. It's like, okay, you know, what or even just say like, hey, what are we out? What are we gonna do to help him out? Corley: Right, right. Nick Papa: Because that's really the at the heart of the issue here is especially for the officers. where you're you're legitimately responsible. If somebody's not up the par and you know about it and you don't do anything about it, You are equally a part of the problem. Yeah. Your best you quickly reach the second. So you're just allowing it to happen. And like, you know, Jocko's got that line. You know, it's not what you preach, it's what you tolerate Corley: Yeah. Nick Papa: So you can you can preach all the the firemanship that you want and you know be the the high speed, but you don't always have you don't have the choice of choosing who you work with on a day-to-day. You know, who shows up on the on the roster or where, you know, who you're working with on overtime or who's going to be that crew back backing you up or who's going to be that that writ team. or if you're searching who that crew is that that's protecting you while you're you're going above, you don't control that. But what you can control is if you know somebody's not up to par. is doing what you can to get that person up to speed and square them away. So that's my challenge to you. It's it's easy to throw it throw the stones. It's but it's much harder to actually to roll your sleeves up and do the work. But I will tell you it's it's that much more gratifying. And you want to talk about building relationships and you know building that that credibility and you know putting putting some serious capital in the leadership bank. It's it's doing that. It's it's trying it's putting yourself out there and making up you know making other people better because that's That's what this job is all about is to make sure that when the bell hits, we're we're ready to do the job.

Corley: Yeah, that's what the hand better said. He's piling up some timestamps into the end. And Gregory said, Dan Bender, I was thinking the same thing. No, absolutely, man. It was a great, that's a phenomenal chip. Both of them phenomenal challenges. The short one and the long one. And and and I will tell you this about the short one. Be very careful because it's a slippery slope once you try it. It is a is a deep dark hole that you will disappear into. So I love the challenge, brother. The negativity stand down is a phenomenal. Step out of the vortex. There you go. That officially puts 290 of the books. Housekeeping is go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes. The Discord is up and running and very active. if you are looking for a place to connect with like-minded souls, go become a vigilante. One of the cool parts is we do the after party, which is about to start here in the next couple minutes. Nick has agreed to come into the after party and get roasted by the vigilantes. So that is about to occur. Sam is going to post the link. Right now the vigilanians were right in the middle of a V50. I think today was day 16 of the V50 commitment. and absolutely crushing it. I don't know how many people are still sticking to it, but we are plowing forward with that 50-day commitment. The 50-day commitment is going to end right in front of FDIC. And that's the reason we started it when we did. Next week it is. Next week it is. Let's see. Yes, Keith Stakes coming on the show on Sunday. And then following is Mark Alone. So 2025 is absolutely killing it. Nick absolutely killed it tonight. With all that being said, that's enough jabbering for me. Audience, I love you. You know I love you each and every week. You show up here, you ask phenomenal questions to the guest, and you set us up for success and you make the scrap magical I can never thank you enough for taking time out of your day to come in here and be part of the live show. So thank you. You know I love you. Nick, thank you for being a part of this and spending your evening with us. My pleasure. Thanks for the invite.

Corley: Everybody else, I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning. Everybody, stay safe out there.