Weekly Scrap #258 - Chris Wessels, On Safety, Aggression & Family

Corley: Corley Moore, spending a few minutes here at the beginning to talk about the vigilantes. If you know me, you know I love this group. And if you are not already a vigilante, you need to ask yourself why you are not. There are so many great things about being a member. You get the first look at the behind the scenes of the scrap. You get to have input on the future direction of the scrap. There are the Vigilante meetups, the Vigilante only swag shop, the merch discounts, the fireaways, the VIP forums, which are like scraps, but you get to log in and be involved on screen talking to the person. It's great, man. And all the vigilantes are invited. You get the files, you get the posts, you get the questions and the polls. But the best part, besides all of that stuff, the best part is that you get to belong to a community of like-minded souls. And when you have that, when you belong to a community of like-minded souls like that, man, it is powerful Especially in this calling, especially in this profession. When you have that, you are never alone. So go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes And join today. It's five bucks a month. Five bucks a month. I used to say it's the price of a cup of coffee, but that's not even true anymore. Because you can't hardly get a cup of coffee for five bucks a month. It's the best value in the fire service. So go to patreon. com slash the vigilantes and go sign up today. Become a member of the Cool Kids Club. Come hang out. I look forward to seeing you there. Corley Moore, Firehouse Vigilance Weekly scrap number 258. My guest tonight is the one and only Chris Wessels. He put in a solid 34 years in the fire service, the vast majority of it. 28 years, in fact at the Atlanta Fire Department, worked his way through the ranks from firefighter all the way up to assistant chief, shift commander, which was the position he retired from in 2020. He has been an FDIC hot instructor. He has been an instructor for the Georgia Flames program. He's been an instructor as part of the Axioms of Leadership program. He is a vigilante. And most of all, he is a family man He actually retired early to become a full-time dad, which is something I'm sure we'll talk about.

Corley: Welcome, my brother, Chris Wessels, as the guest of weekly scrap number 258. Chris Wessels: Thank you, brothers. Honor to be here It's humbling, as honored to be here with you, Corley. Corley: I'm excited for the topics. I'm excited for the evening. Okay. Anything I missed in the intro? Anything you want to add? Chris Wessels: No, no, no. Just keep it simple. Keep it simple. Corley: You actually kept it very simple. I had to like had to spice it up, you know, and and and add some filler words. Because you did. You kept it very simple. Audience, please get your questions ready It is gonna be good for Chris, myself. Sam is Sam is monitoring the chat. I'm trying to watch the chat, but you know how that goes. and what was I gonna say? I actually got a text from Todd Edwards today and said, I didn't even know you knew Chris. I said, no, Chris is a he's an active vigilante. He's like an active vigilante. He said, I'm gonna be there tonight. And he did. He said, Chief Wessels, my favorite boss. That's what he said in chat. Chris Wessels: Oh man. Todd, one minute favorite guys to work with. You talk about what a great attitude professionally, personally, because people loved them. Just amazing guy. Hell of a firefighter too.

Corley: No, I'd I've only known him in the last probably five years or so, but yeah, I can't argue whatsoever. Yeah. Never do him on the job. Chris Wessels: Oh, and he's he's not he's nowhere near quitting. He he's doing so much around the country. Corley: Yeah the knowledge spreading the love and just an incredible guy a dynamo really so here we go let me catch you up with everything yes yes it's go time from bradley valley court on shift checking in from Florida. The iPhone Boys are in the house. That's from Cody Brooks. Woody C O D said, My man, another great one about to drop wisdom. Caleb Shelley is checking in from Georgia on shift tonight. Nikki B said LFG checking in from the desert. Steven Kaiser said, hell yeah, let's do this. He's calling from the future. Or maybe it's not the future yet. I'm not sure which. but he's calling from tomorrow checking in yeah absolutely so much hype so much hype okay we're caught up we'll do the we'll do the sponsors and we'll get this going Chris Wessels: Nice. Corley: OG, sponsor of the scrap, Key Hose. And this last one is my personal shout-out. It's my fools chapter, the Mid-America Fools of Oklahoma City. They are having an annual conference this year, September 27th and 28th. first day is all lectures and the second day is all hot tracks with live fire scenarios. You can use the QR code that's going to be flashing by to go and be a part of a great conference. I'm muting my phone. I'm sorry about that. Go and be a part of a great conference. A portion of every registration is going to the family of Fallen Wichita Firefighter Ty Voth. And a hundred percent of the proceeds from the raffle that they're having there is going to the family of Ty Voth. So if you are a vendor or you have something that you want to donate to that raffle, the QR code will be flashing by. Be a part of it. They can use items donated for the raffle and get it in there or go to the conference. support it so all that being said sponsors are done we're ready for a scrap how the sound levels how the sound levels sam we good Okay. I saw I saw you were messing with sound levels.

Corley: Okay. Chris, I love the topics you sent me, brother. I really do. So right off the gate, you you sent the battle between aggressive tactics. and safety. How did that happen? And how do we balance? Go ahead. Chris Wessels: This is one this is odd. This one's got me really puzzled. I started noticing it maybe a dozen years ago or so becoming an issue not so much in Atlanta but in the fire service it started kind of sneaking its way into Atlanta a little bit but kind of to set the tone I came up in Auburn under a very aggressive mindset. Very aggressive firefighters, great mentors. Came to Atlanta and I basically went into the same culture. being default aggressive. Matter of fact in Atlanta, the way our SOP works for instance in command is you are automatically assumed to be offensive rescue mode and phase of operation when you arrive on a on a working fire. So that was always the mindset. Corley: That's the operating assumption when you show up. Chris Wessels: Right. The operating assumption when you show up is offensive and rescue. And you have to dictate otherwise. And you know, 95 or more percent of the time, that's the mode you stayed in when you arrived. So when I started hearing all this talk around the country it really puzzled me and I started putting two and two together seeing and I don't mean this to beat up on fire chiefs but I started seeing a trend with a lot of fire chiefs not only were they moving around a lot kind of going from the department to department, but also the fire chiefs position became more political than it did. You know, you used to call the fire chiefs used to be chief fire engineers. And I think once a lot lot of fire chiefs lost the civil service protection the jobs became more political and so what I started seeing was kind of I I a guy came to me young guy came to me he was doing a research paper for a degree and he asked about it. So I kind of came up with an analogy because we're a blue-collar trade.

Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: And every blue-collar trade has an apprentice, a journeyman, and a master. And when Stu becomes senior company officer or chief officer in the field, you are a master level or you should be. But what I started seeing is people got in the fire service and like man this isn't really for me but it's a great gig so they would gravitate towards positions that were maybe not directly field related but they were maybe a high level apprentice or a low level journeyman And then as they progressed through their career outside the track of field operations, one day they started getting the aspirations to become a chief officer. They promote the chief officer, then all of a sudden they're inserted back in the field at what should be a master's level of skill and expertise, but they never went past the journeyman or the the apprentice or journeyman phase. So they defaulted to what they knew and it wasn't enough to support being aggressive chief. So what they started doing is instead of being In instead of safety being all the background to how we operate. So in other words, to me, when you talk about safety in the fire department, that's how competent you are, how squared away you are. you are with your gear, you got your rig squared away, you got your hose loads squared away. That's safety. Safety is not avoiding risk. And so what I think a lot of these fire chiefs started doing is instead of risk management, they shifted to risk aversion. And in their minds, safety was not taking the risk or not being as aggressive. So they started what I saw punishing the firefighters who are aggressive. But the crazy thing about that is in my opinion, that backfires on them because it actually makes the fire ground more dangerous. If that makes sense. Oh yeah. Oh so that's kind of how I was able to rationalize it in my head and explain it to this young guy. And I I saw it. I saw it start to happen. And fortunately, Atlanta still has a very aggressive mindset for the most part, but there's been h times where people have been really knocked down for being aggressive. I think didn't you have Danny Dwyer on the scrap?

Corley: Oh yeah. Oh yeah he came on. Chris Wessels: You know, I was we don't have enough time to talk about that. I got wrapped into helping with some of those investigations, unfortunately not Danny's. Danny did what we do hundreds and hundreds and thousands of times, but the wrong people interpreted the wrong way and he really got slapped. So my I guess without getting too long. I think the reason that we got into this collision between aggressive tactics and safety is people were hijacking the term safety and instead of risk management they're doing risk up version. We even had a fire chief, if he said it once, he said it a thousand times, I don't want a firefighter to die under my command. watch none of us do right right right none of us do but that's not a reason not to be aggressive that's a reason to get your people the best training and and make time so that they can train. Don't clog up their schedule with a bunch of stuff that looks good on the on on a press release but has nothing to do with the mission. Make sure you're doing your business on your end to give your people all the tools they need. So when you sit there and say that, first of all, you can't say that because in our business, you can do everything right and things can still go horribly wrong. And that's, I think, something people have to understand is that once you step up and you're going to be an incident commander, you have to have an incredible amount of inst of internal and intestinal fortitude because you're the one that's got to decide how long is that building viable and at the very least maintain that aggressive posture to get your primary searches done and hopefully to knock the fire out. So it's just it's a complex thing, but what worried me is you know how the pendulum swings.

Corley: Oh yeah. Chris Wessels: I started seeing a lot of people say safety shouldn't even be in our culture. Well that's not true Because if we're not safe and we end up getting hurt unnecessarily, we just jack up the whole fire ground, right? Because it's once a firefighter's hurt or firefighters trapped, it changes the whole dynamic of the fire ground. And it's interesting, the more I started thinking about it, man, I've got some books from some awesome authors right here. Corley: Oh, I love it. Chris Wessels: Vinnie Dunn. Corley: Vinnie Dunn. Chris Wessels: Oh. Oh, these are all signed copies, which I'm very proud of. In the signature, you know what all three of them said? Stay safe. Corley: So what I Hey real quick say the names of each one because audio for the for the podcast. I I don't do it often, but I'm trying to think of it. Go ahead. Chris Wessels: John Norman. That's one of his many books. Vincent Dunn, classic. Corley: Classic burning buildings. Chris Wessels: Champo, tower ladder operations. Corley: Right on. Okay. So Chris Wessels: Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, Corey. Corley: No, no, you're good. You're good. Chris Wessels: So my point being was the message I want to send especially to the younger firefighters is safety's not the issue What the issue is people who are cowards hijacking the word safety to avoid risk. And so what we need to do in the fire service is maintain that aggressive posture, maintain that aggressive mindset. and do everything in our power so that we are safe when we're operating on the fire ground, which is, again, being so intimately familiar with your turnout gear and your SCBA that you can do everything with it at a moment's notice in any conditions dark whatever being intimately equipment familiar with your apparatus your hose loads all your everything that kind of becomes mundane on the job daily checks that should never be the mundane. And if we do that, that's where the safety comes in. And then we can arrive on the fire ground and be that default aggressive because Because at the end of the day, if we're not postured to do offensive rescue search operations, why are we asking our citizens to spend millions and millions and millions of dollars of their tax money to fund us.

Corley: Right on. Chris Wessels: Especially in this day and time because yes, we want to save property, but with insurance and stuff like that, if if we're not here to save lives and be aggressive with that, why are we even here? And the other thing about that is if you don't take an aggressive posture, you're making the fire ground more dangerous because every second that fire burns, every second that buildings get more dangerous, and the best way to put out a fire is get to the seat of the fire and extinguish it. There's no substitute for that. And there's no substitute for rescuing somebody other than being inside, taking a beating, and doing searches. And Corley, I've in researching this, I looked at a paper that I wrote in 2007 that I I haven't written read since then. I wrote it for a class and I interviewed Atlanta Firefighter who are actually trapped or burned while interior firefighting. Corley: Okay. Chris Wessels: And I want to say this too. I've worked in Atlanta probably with about half a dozen firefighters who were seriously burned to the point I'm talking multiple weeks in the burn unit and in months of recovery after that. These guys all came back to the job on the front line on rigs and I can't to me that right there is the definition of guts and grit and really being a hero because we don't like to use the word hero of the fire service right but You spent weeks in the burn unit, months recovering, and you come back and put that gear on again. And it's interesting, this one in particular, he was doing VES on a second floor apartment, and the woman said, My baby's inside. Well her baby was 15 years old and about 200 pounds, which that doesn't change anything, obviously, but he was expecting a baby.

Corley: Right. It was her baby. Chris Wessels: I mean we're we're always our mama's babies, right? Corley: Oh yeah. Chris Wessels: But he was taking such a beating and i don't i wanted to read one thing he said in in the interview with me and you know i i should have Corley: You're good. Chris Wessels: You're good, brother. Basically he said he knew he had to keep his face piece on so he could keep breathing And once he searched back and found the window, he handed the boy out the window and firefighters climbed down the ladder with him. Then he dove out headfirst out the window onto the ladder. And basically he said to when he was inside, he said, basically what he was thinking of was, I've got to get myself and this boy out. And then he said, God, if you're going to take my body, please save my soul. Wow. And that was so powerful to me. This is the time you're taking my body. I pray that you'll save my soul. And out of that incident is when Atlanta started using issuing Nomex hoods. Again, this guy, he spent weeks in the burn unit and months recovering. And he went on for years was a volunteer at burn camp. the the Georgia firefighters burn foundation for burned children. But anyway, several of these interviews I did, it's interesting because each one led to a change. One of the other ones led to going from hit boots to bunker pants

Corley: Okay. Chris Wessels: You know, so I guess my point being, in every one of these situations, though, what it didn't do was make the department less aggressive. You know, so when these things happen, you've got to learn from them, make what changes you can make, and then move forward. And I had a tough time. You know, I spent two years as the operations chief and then came back down and that's a pretty good story. Corley: But it seems to be a a theme in in d in Atlanta that you go up and up and down. But we'll get to the story I hope. But anyway Chris Wessels: I was talking to a guy who was doing some consulting with us. He used to be a Marine. And basically I said, you know, when I was a company officer, I could lay my hands on all my people. Not all the time, obviously, but I'm right there with them. Right. The battalion chief, you're a little bit re move deputy chief 600 people and I can't touch them you know I can't be a part of making sure they're okay and that's when he told me said you can do everything right and things can still go horribly wrong and you just have to live with that fact. And when you look at what we do in the fire service, we're pulling up on an imperfect situation making rapid imperfect decisions and we're imperfect people, right? Oh yeah. So things can happen. So anyway, that's kind of my viewpoint on what I think we need obviously is we need to maintain our default aggressive mindset. We cannot lose that because if we lose that we have let down the American public. We've let our citizens down and but we have to do everything on the front end to make sure that we are safe during that default aggressive operation so that's my message to the young people is it's not a war between being aggressive and being safe. Those two work hand in hand. Again, I came up under some extremely aggressive firefighters and officers, and safety was always a topic, but it was not used as a crutch to avoid

Corley: the risk right home bro what what a great what a great opening i have one two three four five six seven timestamps that i got myself and then there's been there's been timestamps just just throw one by someone said like 814 to 819 multiple timestamps so they're they're all over the place but what i need is questions chris you're being way too interesting right now and way too on point because they're just listening. So get me some questions coming. You already answered the first one, which came from Todd Edwards. He's he asked about the Danny Dwyer. Right when you were talking about it, he asked the question but you addressed it unless you have more to say on it at all. I do. Okay, go, go. Chris Wessels: Without getting into rehash and all, the investigation of what Danny did was given to a brand new battalion chief who honestly didn't have a lot of time in the field. This battalion chief, I think, had good intentions, but there was then basically Once the complaint was filed on Danny, there's this captain who's great aggressive captain said, okay, if that's the game we're gonna play, let's play that game. And he filed complaints against some other people who basically it became shoot shots across the bow.

Corley: Okay. Chris Wessels: So our internal affairs. chief brought the other three complaints to me and said I need somebody to investigate these who understands the fire ground and I did and came up with a conclusion conclusions and I just wish he had given me Danny's because it would have been a totally different outcome. But he didn't and there was nothing I could do about it. like I said Danny, what Danny did, we've all done. We've all All done, you know, and that goes and again I'm not taking shots, but it's just the truth. This was under the command of that fire chief that said, you know, I do not want to lose a firefighter under my command And again, none of us do, but that can't preclude you from doing the job, you know. so yeah, that was and that really hurt the morale of the department too. And I'll share something Maybe we'll get into this incident, but we had an incident where we had a firefighter trap for 16 minutes. Todd was in command. I was there. I was about to leave because we We're in overhaul and longest 16 minutes of my life for sure. But the way our boss dealt with us, It didn't change how I operated on the fire ground, but what it did was put doubt in my mind that I never had before. So I didn't doubt my decisions, but I had doubt as to how the department would support me based on the outcome of my decisions if that made sense.

Corley: Absolutely. Chris Wessels: And as a leader, if you treat your people in such a way that you're gonna cause them to have even a moment's repetition in this business you've done such a disservice to the business and to our profession because one thing our people need to have is they need to have confidence in knowing that when they make a decision we're going to back them up. And if they made a really there's no wrong decisions in the fire department because again, like I said, you're coming up on an imperfect situation. It may be a situation you've never seen before. So if you put any doubt in your people's head that this decision may inflict cause them have pain inflicted on them later by the organization, you're doing a tremendous disservice because that's going to cause somebody to misstep and either not make a decision or make a a poor decision And you even read about it in the book Lone Survivor. You know, when they were contemplating what to do about the the villagers that had found them the the SEAL commander Lieutenant Murphy one of the things that went through his mind is how would this be perceived by the American news media? Now can you imagine being halfway across the world fighting in combat and you're worried about how your actions can be perceived. Well the same in the fire department. If your people are worrying about how their decision is going to be perceived by headquarters, you're setting you're you're actually again you're making that fire ground more dangerous because you're causing people to have doubt in their head about their decisions and and you can't do that. Can't do that

Corley: Powerful. Love it. Absolutely love it, man. Todd Edwards coming at you. Realistic training over computer-based BS all the time. Chris, your thoughts as a very pro training boss. Hey, and by the way, I want to tell you this. Daniel Dwyer is in the YouTube chat and he said thank you, boss. Nice. Or thank you, bro. He said thank you, bro. I want to get around quote him right. All right, go ahead. Chris Wessels: I honestly think there's no place in the fire service for computer-based training. With the exception of maybe the department comes out with a new policy or something and it's quicker to do it on the computer. I think there's absolutely no place. for computer-based training. I won't say the brand, but we had a computer-based training where you have to have so many hours in. I'll be honest with you. You know, as always do at the end of the year, I was at zero hours sitting there just knocking them out one after the other, having three computers going trying to get through them, you know. and it doesn't it gets you nothing. It gets you've got to put your hands on the hose, you've got to put your gear on on you've got to touch the levers on the trucks you've got to physic this job the only way you're gonna be proficient in this job is with repetitions and you're gonna get those repetitions through going on calls and training and the less calls you go on the more training you have have to do because you're not getting those reps on the calls. And even when we go on calls, a lot of times based on your territory, you're getting the same reps. So maybe Maybe you've deployed the inch three-quarter pre-connect six times in the last 10 months. But when's the last time you deployed a two and a half, or when's the last time you put the deck on an operation? And then the other thing with training with that, if you're a super busy company, you got to keep it quick and fast and effective. You know, give your crew a 20, 30 minute quick training, hands-on. Don't be afraid to leave hoes laying in the on the on the the on the street if you get a catch a call but long answer to a pretty simple thing though I I personally think there's no place for the computer in training as far as what we do on the rig You know what's the computer going to tell you?

Chris Wessels: I could put together a computer class about checking out a K-12 saw. But are you going to be able to go out and actually do it on that saw? Of course not. Of course not. And you know, something else interesting that kind of touches on that. I want to give props to the new generation of firefighters. Because you hear a lot of people talking about gen whatever and they're this, they're that, they're that this. You know what? They're the ones that are keeping the fire service going. And I'm sure people were saying the same thing about us when we were rookies. You know, oh God, this new generation. I have a buddy who retired from a big department just North Atlanta, Gwynet. And And he, super humble, he was revered as one of the best driver engineers in that department. I mean, he's been retired six years. I can say his name to somebody. Oh my God, that guy's a leg. And he wanted to go no further. He loved being a driver. And one day he said at the station guys were talking about, these new kids can't do jack. They don't know nothing. And he said, let me tell you something. He goes I know the reputation I have here. He started in Atlanta. He said, when I came to the Atlanta fire department, the biggest thing I'd ever driven was a Toyota pickup truck. He said, my friend Chris Wessels taught me how to use a circular saw to build my workbench. we bought a house and he just rattled off all these things. He said I didn't know anything. And he said the fire department gave me everything that you guys hold me in high esteem for. So he said, don't sit here and say these new guys don't know Jack. He said if they don't, whose fault is that?

Corley: Right on. Chris Wessels: You know, and you know I've heard people say, well, they gotta come to me and show interest That's a two-way street, right? Your brand, remember your first couple days in the firehouse. I was intimidated as all get out I mean, these are just burly, studly dudes. And, you know, I'm like, I was 19 years old, you know, and it's intimidating. And and you gotta figure out, you know, but yeah, I don't you've got to go to them. And yeah, after you go to them, if they're not drinking the water, but you know, you can't just wait for them to come to you Right on. Corley: I love it. David Rhodes said, Wessels, I'm gonna need you to report to the chief's office at 8 a. m. in the morning. And he said, Oh, never mind. I forgot you retired four years before Champ was booked. came out. Chris Wessels: he's gotta clarify what uniform I'm supposed to be in, what jackets appropriate to wear, and if I can have my radio or not Corley: I need some clarification. I need some clarification. Chris Wessels: I guess that's complicated. Leave it to Roadie. Corley: Love it. Absolutely love it. You got Edwards, Rhodes, Dwyer. There is quite a few. Those are all two also. scrap alumni also there's quite a few right quite a few chief what's your take on the thought about or just the current state of two in two out and its value

Chris Wessels: You know, I'm glad that came up because two it's so funny when two and tune came out, I did a lot of training for Well Scott Millsap, God rest his soul. He had ESE training associates. You know, Scott was involved with fire engineering in the editorial review committee. He's smoke diver number 25, just huge influence in the Georgia Fire Service. Okay And we worked for Scott and a training company and most of our training was on the industrial side because back then we didn't have the the internet and social media to really they're just these pop-up fire conferences were not they're very difficult back then. So when I read two and two out, I was like, this is an industrial standard. This is not a firefighting standard. And The genesis of OSHA two in and two out was for industrial operations, primarily hazardous materials and confined space entry. It was never, in my opinion, intended to be for structural municipal fire fighting and here's the other thing that's interesting of course NFPA adopted it in you know NFPA 1500 and various things but it's not practical and Again, it was really it's in it was intended for the industrial side of things. Now, do we need to have some capacity to rescue firefighters of course. Funny story, when RIT really started coming to play, writ or or fast teams, whatever you want to call them, these were the early years of fire engineering. And is the first year, I think indie or the first year they had hot in indie and tom brennan man this guy we were fortunate again through Scott Milsat we got access to a lot of people people and we're sitting around a bar one night just listening to Tom Brennan preach. And he said, ah Rit. In my day we called having it enough guys on the scene. So his point was It's just a fancy way to say I have enough resources on the scene, right? Yeah. So again, I'm getting long-winded, but I think There's a place to have a contingency to rescue your people, but two in and two out is not it, especially not for the first arriving company Because if you're blessed to run arrive with four, it's going to take all four of those to get a line in operation, right? Oh yeah. And I would say the majority of the American five Service is probably running with three, if I would have to guess.

Corley: That's probably the accurate. Chris Wessels: You know, Chatsworth, Georgia, and North Georgia, they have four people on duty on an engine. company and that's their fire department. Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: How are they going to do two in and two out and be effective to actually serve their citizens the way we're supposed to and rescue their citizens. So I think there is purpose in having backup rescue. But again, if you look at the statistics, very rarely are firefighters getting trapped in those first few moments. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It happened to us in Atlanta and it led to a fatality. But the overwhelming majority of the time And if you look at the statistics, most firefighters get lobster disoriented. Self-rescue or someone in their crew rescues them. What we did in Atlanta, well, it's funny, when they first started two in and two out in Atlanta. I was a company officer and I said, well that's simple. Every fire I pull up on is gonna be possible entrapment because then you can throw it out the window. You know, it's kind of my way of getting around. And all of us really. And Atlanta we very loosely adhered to it. But what we ended up doing once Chief Rubin came, he was a big advocate of RIT because of Phoenix and Bret Tarver. And Phoenix really was one that Let the country know you can't rescue a firefighter with one or two three firefighters. And so we're able to use that and leverage that and we uploaded our incidents. We sent an extra engine and truck just for writ But we had them do fire ground functions that weren't getting done because of our staffing. You know, so we called it an active writ or an aggressive writ. One of the things that Rit Engine did was stretch a line and charge it And that wasn't a writ line. Some people called it that. That was a backup line. So if we need another line, boom, it's all ready to go. So long-winded way of saying again, I think there is a place to have contingency and resources to rescue firefighters, but two in and two out, especially on the initial arriving, to me is not the not the way to do it.

Corley: There you go. Chris Wessels: So I'm glad to see I'm glad to see that leaders that are still active in the fire service are starting to create that dialogue to go to something else. Corley: Right on. Right on. Great question from Jeff Stone, which I don't know if I mentioned that that that was his question coming up Chief Rhodes has a clarification for he said no chewing gum. Chris Wessels: Yeah, that got me a letter reprimand. I got a letter reprimand. that's when I knew that I was gonna get the moted sometime in the near future. I got a reprimand for chewing gum at a city council committee meeting while I was presenting to the city council. Yeah. I also got trouble for chewing gum when I was a witness in a court case and the judge actually made me spit the gum out in a piece of Kleenex. Corley: Are you a are you a aggressive gum chewer? Chris Wessels: I mean I guess maybe I was I don't know. Corley: I don't really chew them that often, but just trying to have some good breath, a little dentine for the minty freshness, you know. I mean, you know. Okay. Okay Bo Boucher wants to know the best way to create a more aggressive mindset when you have conservative admin. And you got the answer for this one. I want to hear it. I'm all ears, brother.

Chris Wessels: Well You know what? That's a tricky one. What I would say is it has to start at the company level, right? And I was never in the military, but talk to like of military people they say when they want to make a change they start in basic training and work it through the organization. you have to show at your level that you have all that stuff we talked about loaded on the front end You are so squared away, so competent, and so just tight with everything you do, laying hose, you know force an entry, your gear, you have to show that you're so squared away and tight that your actions and your professionalism can support that aggressive attack. And push the limits. I hate to say that because some admins react really crazy to it, some don't. Push the limits and show them what you can do and show them that you can do it safely. Because again when you look at the statistics throughout the country, it's interesting too if you break out you know majority of the firefighters in this country are volunteer of course, but if you break out the volunteer from the career firefighters, the injury statistics look a lot different. You know, when when you look at the career side, cardiac is no longer the number one killer of at least when I look at the data. It could it could be different now.

Corley: Sure, sure. But no, I don't like that's yeah, that's Chris Wessels: But so my answer would be if you and your crew, the crews you work with, if you just show that admin, look how squared away and professional we are are look how competent we are look how we're making good decisions and show them that their risk isn't what they think it is because you're so squared away And then, you know what? You could even just try to, once you do that, put it on, put it in paper, you know, and show them. You know, this is what it'll do for the community, this will do for us. But but the bottom line is the more proficient and excellent you are is what you do Because they again it's because they're scared. You know, I hate to be so blunt, but when they are taking that mindset where they don't want you to be so aggressive, it's just out of fear because they doubt themselves, so they automatically doubt you If that makes sense. Oh yeah. You know, they don't have the confidence in their own skills. So that's automatically g you know how kind of the person who doesn't trust anybody probably very trustworthy of themselves.

Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: Well, the person that don't want you to take the risk is scared of that risk themselves because they don't have the skill set to deal with that risk. So they just assume nobody else does or they don't they don't want the exposure. Corley: Beautiful. Beautiful. Josh Everett's coming at you is asked what wants to know what did loyal disobedience get you in trouble for I was loyal to the city. Chris Wessels: When I say the city, I was loyal to the citizens. I was loyal to the firefighters in the city of Atlanta. I was disobedient. to the fire chief. And it's a long story. I saw it coming. Corley: -oh. Looks like you get me for a minute. Hopefully we get him back. We got questions coming. Okay. We're going to see if he comes back. Hopefully, because man, he's killing it. Absolutely killing it. I'm looking at I'm I'm reading YouTube right now. I'm reading I'm I'm trying to read YouTube. It's scrolling pretty good. Chief Edwards, Josh Edwards said, Chief Edwards, that was the first 20 years of my career. I think he's talking about the two in or the two-man engine company. My check! I'm all alone here. Hopefully he will come back. We'll give it a minute. Might have to do a stand-in. Might have to call up call up from the reserve, see if somebody wants to step in what was I gonna say? I can make some announcements while I'm waiting. I can make announcements coming up next week is Arthur Ashley, and that's always gonna be it's gonna be fun. I think that's a that's one way you can say it. Author Ashley's gonna be on, so we'll see how that plays out. But the week after that is something that's never happened on the scrap ever. In the history, the five-year history of the scrap, he said, hold on, I got a text from him. I see me, I can't see you. Yeah, he's not online, I believe. Check, I'll tell him check camera. We got no feed. Got no feed of you. Welcome to live internet show. Got no feed of you. but never been done in the and while while Chris works on it. Never been done in the history of the scrap ever. Like I want people to try and guess what's gonna happen because it's gonna be cool.

Corley: I really think it's gonna be awesome. And so Yeah, I can see I can I can see Chris Chris he's showing me that he can see us. Am I telling log out log back in Okay. Chris Wessels: Okay, I just hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We're getting back. A phone. I I screw phone. Corley: Can you go landscape? boom. Will it spin? Yeah, it'll spin, maybe Chris Wessels: I'm upside down. Corley: Welcome to the scrap. It's fine. We'll just run with it. Sam, I'll let you do your thing. Oh. Okay. Look, you got me still? No, you're black. oh. Yeah, it's called. Well we can hear you. Yeah. No you're back. Chris Wessels: All right. I'll just can I just let me see How's that? Can you guys hear me? Corley: We'll make it work. Yeah, that's good. Chris Wessels: I don't know what happened on that end, but hey, let's let's do it. Let's make it work. Corley: We're making hey, this is what we do. We adapt, we overcome Chris Wessels: That's right. Just like the fire ground. Corley: That's it, baby. beautiful. Okay, we back. We back. I don't know where we were at. Where were we at? Chris Wessels: We were talking about If you have an admin that's scared to be aggressive and you're at the company level, oh and then we talked about that and then we talked about me how was I a a Disobedient.

Corley: Loyal disobedience, where'd he get you? Chris Wessels: Yeah, so basically the fire chief and I were just cut from different cloths. He was an admin guy. He came from a different department He has most of his career. He left the field as a firefighter and did the admin track and became fire chief at his department in Atlanta. And we were just cut from a different cloth. I mean I was an operations guy my whole career and the chief that promoted me was the interim chief and he put me in that position and then when he didn't get the spot the new guy had been our fire chief before left and came back and it's funny, it took about it took about a year and a half to get demoted, but like his first week back from being our chief the second time time he's like, you know, I'm surprised you took that position because when I interviewed you when I was here last you said you really loved being a shift commander. I said I did, but You know, the interim chief asked me to do this and I felt the a responsibility to do it. So I just thought it was odd that he asked me that and I saw the handwriting in the wall. Like I said, I started getting a little counseling, started getting and reprimands and I saw the train coming down the you know down the track I saw the light I probably could have stepped up and said hey let's make this painless and let me go back where I was but I was stubborn and It culminated in a pre-fiery senior executive staff meeting. And anyway, it it really, you know how how Things like that can end up being a blessing. It was a blessing to me because I was just putting too much of my life into the fire department. And You know, two years later I met who's now my wife and I kind of reorganized my priorities to not let my professional life overshadow my personal life.

Corley: Nice. Chris Wessels: You know, here we are Twelve years later and I've got a beautiful wife and three beautiful kids, you know. So I don't know if that would have happened had I not been demoted, if that makes sense. Corley: Sure. Everything happens for a reason. Chris Wessels: Yeah, so it it it was really a blessing and and I ended up I spent a little time in purgatory at headquarters and I went back as a shift commander and I loved it. So it's all good. Yeah, the fire chief wasn't all wrong because I was We're both in the wrong and you know he got had he had more trumpets, so you know I was more in the wrong, you know. Corley: Right. No, absolutely. K. S. I'm not sure who K. S. is, but K. S wants to know how does station crew life translate to the fire ground? Chris Wessels: Oh I'm gonna tell you something. I've said this for years. Show me a crew that does not eat together, and I will show you a crew that is horrible on the fire ground. They go hand in hand. Even if, you know, and here's something, you're gonna have your picky eaters more so than when I first came to the fire service. I mean, you basically ate what was there, you know? And as years progress, we there's a few more picky eaters. Even if you don't want to participate in the firehouse meal Whatever if you bring in your own food, sit and break bread when we break bread. You know? Yeah. And so if you got a guy that doesn't eat red meat, Buy a pack of chicken breasts. You know, we did that. We had a guy, his dad was on our job, and his dad died really young on the job of a heart attack. He wasn't on duty, but he was still active on the job and died of a heart attack This guy was scared to death of heart disease. Ate no kind of red meat, no fried foods. We always just bought chicken. You know, if we're having pork or beef, we bought chicken for him, you know. You can make it work. So if you have that weirdo that doesn't want to eat for whatever reason Figure out a way to at least be part of the family and break bread. You know I worked for an incredible cat and was a young firefighter.

Chris Wessels: If we we started shift at seven. If we weren't cooking breakfast at 6 30 in the morning, he was pissed Right. Why we weren't cooking breakfast. We had lunch and after breakfast, after we did our training in the morning, either he would go or he'd send somebody to the store. Back then they wouldn't let us take the trucks to the store or it's kind of iffy One of us would go to the store, we'd have lunch, and then we had dinner. And if dinner was not on the table at five o'clock, he was raised in hell. We had a working fire and the fire was out, we were doing overhaul. He had the Chief Command Tech take the guy that was cooking that day back to the firehouse to get dinner going. So that we we you know we still we didn't make five, but at least we're gonna have dinner. And what a incre but I tell you what It was an amazing crew. We didn't have a slug on the crew. And there's counting all the rigs. We had 10 people at that station. And man, it was is one of my most enjoyable experiences in the fire service. Everybody was a go-getter. You know, everybody knew their job. You could rotate around, extra driver, extra OIC, whatever. Everybody knew their so long-winded way again of saying Man, station life and especially breaking bread together is such a big deal as far as the way it translates into how you're going to function on the fire ground

Corley: Right on, brother. Right on. Great question from K. S. Chris Wessels: That was a great question. Corley: I like it. Coming at you. Chief, what are some ways to get the older guys at the station to adopt the newer aggressive mindset when they are set in their ways while still being proficient? They are proficient, but lazy. Chris Wessels: You gotta kind of trick them into it. And what I mean by that is, you know, everybody Wants to be a part of the team, even the ones that act like they don't, right? So find something that they're good at and get them to share it And bring them into the fold. Because sometimes some of these guys know, hey, I'm past my prime and I've let myself get past my prime. And another quote from a great guy who's a career driver, and you know, that's some of your biggest as a company officer One of your biggest assets is that lifelong career apparatus operator. Oh, it's a it's such a saving grace. You know, when I was a company officer on an engine company I was so blessed. I never had to worry about water. Ever. Never had a situation where I had to worry about water. And you talk about taking a lot off your mind You know, so basically just find and what this senior driver said one time, he told his captain, the captain recruited him to come to his station when the during the economic downturn in 08, we were closing some stations temporarily. And this guy, the captain recruited this guy, he goes Cap, I'm just gonna be honest with you. I'm pretty sorry. He said, but there's a few things I shine at. And he said, Cap We can't all be A players, but we all got some way we can shine. You gotta let your people shine. And so that's what I would say. Find out where they can shine and bring them in. Are they gonna be as piss and banger as you? No No, but they can still be a more aggressive part of what you want them to be. And that brings me to one of my we might not have time to hit all of them, but one of my epiphanies I had in my career was as a guy.

Corley: Yeah. Chris Wessels: I had a driver who I worked with when I was a driver and he drove an engine. I drove the heavy rescue and he was an older guy and again he was great at getting water, but in the morning he was basically gonna make sure the truck had six tires And it was red, you know? Corley: Okay. Chris Wessels: So he ended up going out to the airport and when I first made lieutenant I had to go to the airport for a year and a half. That's just where the spot was And I would get frustrated because he was checking the engine, but not the way I would have done it, right? Sure. I'm like, how am I gonna handle this? Because this guy's been on the fire department since I was in grade school, you know. And I realized he's meeting the department standard, which and let's be honest, most departments, the standard's not super high. Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: He wasn't meeting my standard. Corley: Yes Chris Wessels: And what I realized as a company officer, you're going to drive yourself nuts and be miserable, and you're going to make your crew miserable if you try to bring everybody up to your standard So I think what success is, if you can trick them into surpassing their own standard they set for themselves. And not trick them, but if you can If you can get them to maybe not meet your standard, but if you can get them to raise their own bar from what it was, to me that's success.

Corley: Or be the best version of themselves. Chris Wessels: Right. And be a better version of themselves than what they are right now Corley: Beautiful. Beautiful man. I absolutely love that. And I that whole that that I love it. That's one of my epiphanies as a company officer was the the the minimum standard, the company standard, whatever you want to call it, the department standard standard and then your personal standard. Yes. And the disparity between them and the frustration that it can be caused. It's huge. It's huge. Absolutely. Chris Wessels: Again, not everybody has your motivation. So If you try to bring your whole crew up to your standard, there's gonna be some of the crew that want to be at your standard or even above your standard. Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: But you just can't bring everybody to that level. You know, you're gonna have to figure out how to how to help them To your point, sit raise their own bar. Corley: Love it. Love it. Epiphanies. Let's get's hit another epiphany. Chris Wessels: I love them. Okay. I'm gonna I'll share a real simple one. When I made a battalion chief, and I never thought about this until I was a battalion chief, I would say in ninety percent or more of the incidents, the most critical fire ground decisions are made before the chief ever gets there. And that's another reason why the department and the chiefs and training and everything needs to support that company officer. Because in the vast majority of the incidents. When you pull up as a chief, if that first few company officer made good decisions, you're just on cruise control. And that's 90% of the incidents. The most critical decisions are made before you get there. And Which brings me to another point when we teach axioms of leadership, we ask a question, how long is your recruit academy? And people give all kinds of answers, you know, three months, six months, a year, whatever. Then you follow up and say, how long is your company officer academy?

Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: And it's crickets. You know, so with the exception of some excellent departments, you know, I know Montgomery, Alabama has an incredible company officer academies, several others do Most of the departments that I'm familiar with do a mediocre at best job in preparing their company officers and then we expect the world from them. Corley: Oh yeah, yeah. In fact, most of them are just just administrative duties and how to do the the computer work to get by the the you know the whatever you want to call it and no development whatsoever Chris Wessels: Exactly. That that fire ground development. something Todd was really instrumental in in putting into our department was when people are learning to be extra OICs when the officer's off, when you're training them, put them in the front seat and you ride the back as lieutenant or captain. And you ride as a firefighter and you let them sit up there. Let them make all the decisions You know, don't be in the air, but they know that you're right there and you have their back. which kind of tags in. I'm gonna jump into mentorship for a minute and then jump back to you.

Corley: Brother, you go. This is crap. You can go anywhere you want. Chris Wessels: one of the biggest mentors in in in in Atlanta to me was a guy he was a captain on the heavy rescue for a long time he begrudgingly took a battalion chief's position This was one of the guys I talked about. He fell through a floor. Him and three other firefighters were burned, spent weeks in the burn unit, went back on the line. His nickname was Iron Mike, if that tells you anything. Corley: Okay. Chris Wessels: He didn't give it to himself His nickname was Iron Mike, tough as nails. So I was a battalion chief, new battalion chief under his command as shift commander, and I had worked for him in a lot of throughout my whole career as a firefighter, a driver, a lieutenant, and a captain. At different points I'd worked under his command. And I'd been a battalion chief less than a year. And we had a five-story wood frame apartment, not even dried in yet. Basically all five floors were on fire. First in engine caught and across the street was an occupied four-story apartment. And the first in engine called a second alarm before they ever got there And we crested over a hill and I could see the extent of the fire. And the first thought in my head, Corley, was, oh my God, what am I going to do when we pull up? It was that big of a fire. And I just I was a new chief. I was like, what are we on my what are we gonna do?

Corley: Right on. Chris Wessels: Of course, once we stop, you just you go into go mode and you just start working. So as the shift commander, he pulled up And he came up to me and said, how do you feel? I said, right now I feel okay. He said, start a third alarm, wait five minutes, start a fourth alarm. He said, I'm gonna go be your eyes and ears. If you get in a bind, I'll come back. You let me know. And he let me run a four-alarm incident as a less than a year battalion chief. Policy, he was supposed to take command But he decided to be Rover in my eyes and ears. He wasn't gonna let it go south, but he was gonna s let me try to keep it in check on track. And that did so much for my confidence. Because I proved myself I could do it. And it also showed me he had faith in me to do it, you know. And I knew he was there. So I knew he had faith. Right. And that became my mantra. throughout my whole career when I was a shift commander. And it's interesting I did that with the captain when we were again short staffed during the economic downturn. He had a three-alarm townhouse fire And I let him run it and I stood there beside him. And I didn't say anything unless I thought he needed a tweak or he wanted advice from me. And I let him run it. And that guy's a shift commander today. Nice. And I'm not taking credit for that. He was squirt away, period. But he still talks, you know, I I I shared I I passed along. I did the same thing And that does so much for your self-confidence because you're able to do it, but you also know you've got that backstop. And you've got to be You've got to mentor your people like that. You've got to be such a a square-a-way mentor. And you know, it means all the difference. And you that's at every level. That's at every level. because again, you got to get those repetitions. you're not gonna know again that I just can't I've that made such a huge impression on me and made such a difference in my self-confidence because prior to being a battalion chief the times I rode the battalion car as a captain I never had a working incident And so you know I've been a battalion chief for less a year and I was very green at it, you know, very green at it.

Chris Wessels: And so that's the kind of things that that the the that mentorship and then you know, looking for mentors, but that was just that was so huge to me. and then I was gonna I'll skip back Some of these epiphias are really super simple. but another one that was really impactful to me when I was a young firefighter at station two, we we were run and gun in station. They we used to have these medical rescues that handle most medical calls and they took them out of service for staffing. budget reasons. So our engine went from running 1300 calls a year, which were mostly fire calls, to 3,500 calls a year. And we were getting our butt kicked and it was like three in the morning and they sent us nine emergency to assist the persons And we were all bitching and moaning on the way over there. You know, what? Three in the morning, whether they need assistance. All of us were under 30 years old. Of course when we got there we put on our game face and we're totally professional. But we knocked on the door and this old lady, she was 81 years old, came to the door. And when you walked in the house, it looked like a Hollywood set for your grandmother's house. She had plastic floor runners, the plastic on the couches, and all the pictures on the wall were really old pictures. So she's real apologetic and she's like my husband tripped coming back from the bathroom and He's not strong enough to get up and I'm not strong enough to help him up. And he was 79. Anyway, we got him up. He was fine. We had to force him to let us check his vitals and stuff. You know, he just wanted to be no bother And so when we left that call, I felt this tall.

Corley: Right. Chris Wessels: Because I know, yeah, we served with professionalism, no doubt, but it was our attitude going over there. And I was like, you know what? We were there. Oh, when we were leaving, I mentioned something about the pictures. And she said, yeah, we're all that's left in our family. She said, we were never able to have children and everyone else is gone on in our family. And so they just had each other. And here we were all in our 20s, bitching and moaning about going to help someone at three in the morning. And we're all they had. And that totally changed my outlook about now. I'm not gonna lie to you. Well, there's some days did my attitude get a little so you know sour, sure. Absolutely but oh I always went back to that perspective when people call us What may seem insignificant to us, they're not calling because they think it's funny. They're not calling because they want to bother us. At that time, we in the fire department are the answer they're looking for. You know, and that was just very humbling. Very humble. Corley: Dude, great story, man. Great perspective. Yeah, Josh Everett said, you need to write, Chief, you need to write an epiphany book. The Epiphany book. That'd be good, man.

Chris Wessels: It would it would be kind of cool. At least the art another oh I'll tell you a quick one. When I was a company officer, I figured this out The majority of our fires, you know, we were real strict in Atlanta about getting your own water supply. And I know like Kurt's done great work showing, hey, that's not always the answer. That's just was our culture Sure. And it's changed a little bit now. There's more leniency to letting the second inlay into whatever. But also in Atlanta, we had hydrants everywhere. I mean, you know, a 400-foot lay was a long lay, you know. but Something else in Epiphany I came up with as a company officer. I said, you know, most of the fires we're having, we're knocking down with the equivalent of tank water. Because we always started with, you know, we always worked off the tank You know, and most of these fires at you're at least knocking them down with tank water. So it made me realize, you know, you can do a lot more with 500 gallons And you realize. And it's funny because when I came in the fire service, talk about going back to the safety thing, buddy, we use the red snake for all kinds of stuff Car fires, dumpster fires, small kitchen fires. And in Atlanta, we had a lot of these government even when I came to Atlanta in ninety-two we had these government apartments that were basically brick and concrete. We'd pull a booster in a second because it it was a basically a burn building. It wasn't going anywhere. You know, it was contents fire. And I'm not advocating that today per se, but I tell you one of the biggest things I hated to see in the American Fire Service was the loss of the booster line on engines. We still put boosters on brand new engines in Atlanta because they're so useful. But you know, again You could go both ways on it, but if you know what you're doing and the other thing, in Atlanta we had two stage punk, so we ran our boosters at 300 psi, so we're getting 50 to 50 55 gallons a minute out of a one-inch booster. So we're getting a decent amount of water, you know. and I'm not advocating that people Fight structure fires with boosters.

Chris Wessels: Yeah, but but we did a lot with boosters back in the day. And the the these these risk adverse cheap would probably have a heart attack if they saw you know what we used to do with the booster for sure. But again, most of the fires we have, and this is gonna be contingent on, you know your response territory, what your response times are. Most fires we have, you know, you're putting out the first 500 gallons a minute. And you know, I keep thinking back to this risk aversion thing. And we had an incredible rescue back in 2014 or 15, truck company two rescued four children out of a house fire. Four kids out of a house fire. One kid spent a few weeks in the hospital and ended up having to be in a wheelchair. because of his his injuries for a few months. But four kids. And what it made me realize is, you know, what makes the difference between a successful rescue and a fire death. And some of it is is out of beyond our control, right? It's like how soon we get the call based on when the fire broke out you know the conditions inside do they have doors closed whatever but the things we have in our control are our response time And and I'm not saying blow red lights, but I'm saying knowing your territory and driving as aggressive as you safely can And knowing your territory and and and knowing how to get places. And then thirdly, once you set the parking brake, how squared away and confident you are to get to work You know, as soon as that rate stops, what are you fumbling or are you immediately getting to work? And that night, that's what those guys did. They knew their territory, great drivers, got there fast And as soon as the parking brakes set, they're off the truck going to work, you know, running if you got to. And that we owe it to our citizens because I mean think about it. Would look in the mirror and say, would you want you responding to your own house, right? Right.

Corley: You know, would great great question. Chris Wessels: Responding to your family. And that's not my original, but it's it's certainly pointing Corley: it no no i love it that the fact one of the the john spear of fit to fight fire that whole would you want you rescuing you mantra is one of the things that inspired me to do the weekly scrap and firehouse vigilance that whole question wow so so absolutely great questions coming keiser's asking a question from the future He said, do you think effective fire ground training is the answer to the safety adversity culture? Which he did say yes to that earlier, but I like this part of the question. Where would you start? Chris Wessels: You've got to show these people who are so scared of being aggressive. You've got to prove to them and show them that it's actually making the fire grounds safer. Because and and here's the thing that just blows my mind, Corley. You'll have these people that are scared about you being aggressive with an interior attack and interior searches But they're okay with bombarding a building with master streams for an hour and then going in and doing overhaul. It blows my mind You know, you have attacked this building with tens of thousands of pounds of water at at eighty or a hundred psi And you're talking about you don't want your people to be aggressive because of the risk, but you're gonna put them into a wood frame structure that you've pounded, you know, three-story apartment you've pounded with these master streams to do overhaul Right. You know, and then the other thing that's funny to me, in Atlanta, the sk most scared I've ever been on the job, and that's the thing too, to you young guys, don't be afraid of saying something on this job scared you. Because if there's a firefighter that tells you they've never been scared, they're full of crap. But the scaredest I've ever been on the job has been on the interstates. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we'll send people on the interstate all day long, you know, but for some reason there's this such a advert and we've We've had an off-duty firefighter killed on the interstate, stopping a help, leaving shift, leaving the station, stop to help a lady change the tire, was hit and killed. We had a firefighter hit by a wheel that came off of a semi-truck a shoddy work changing a spare tire, grazed his hip and fractured his pelvis.

Chris Wessels: We how close were we losing somebody? Millimeters, right? Yeah. A truck tire. we had a guy, sadly, about it two years before I retired, right at Shift Change, was hit by a car, lost his leg at the knee You know, look at all these things have happened to Atlanta firefighters and the interstate. Yet we'll send you on the interstate all day long. You know, we do send two apparatus, but still we'll send you all day long. But then all of a sudden we don't want to send you inside a burning building. You know, it's just that's why it it's not a logical argument If you're saying it's because of the risk, it's not a logical argument because you're putting people into all kinds of situations that in my mind, it's more dangerous. I think when we send rigs out on the interstate, to me that's more dangerous than sending people inside a fire. Corley: Oh yeah, I would agree 100%. I think most Yeah. Chris Wessels: But it's it's something they're scared of the fire because they didn't come up through their career track with the experience to deal with it. So that just it it intimidates them And like I said earlier, if you're not a good firefighter, if you were not a good firefighter, you're not gonna be a good chief officer. You cannot be a good chief officer if you did not get your foundational skills as a firefighter.

Corley: Oh hold on, I gotta timestamp. I'm listening too much, not time stamping. Can't be a good chief. That's my own note so that I can file it away. Good, good. All right. We're getting there. Right. We're getting there. Chief, what are some I like this one. I really want to ask this question to you. Chief from Zachary Wendell. He wants to know, Chief, what are some pointers for being a passionate firefighter, but also a great father and husband? Chris Wessels: Oh wow, that's a really good one. Okay, so I I kind of did life backwards. I got married later in life, and so I didn't start having kids till the end of my career. And I had already kind of figured out. So here's the deal. Here's the craziest thing about the fire department. Our love for the job is a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because it's an incredible job. I should have put this in my bio. I've wanted to be a firefighter since I was five years old. I remember the first time I ever saw a fire truck. And I went to college because that's what my parents expected of me, which ended up being great because that's where I started my career. but So most jobs people don't have the passion for the job that we do as firefighters, right? Yeah, there are some jobs that do. Sure. You know, maybe, you know, iron workers, military, some police. Most career tracks, you're not going to have the passion. You don't see people who drive city garbage trucks going to the parts store and buying parts to keep their garbage truck in service You know what I mean? I mean we'll go to the parts store buy stuff to keep a rigging service from having to swap the reserve. So our passion is what makes us excellent But our passion is also what hurts us. Because we sometimes tend to sacrifice our personal life or our family for a profession. So my advice to you would be several things and I this is gonna rub some people wrong this one this first one I saw a huge trend of firefighters not doing trades on the part-time anymore but working at second fire departments Because it's easy and it's comfortable, it's decent money, right? But that puts you away from home that much longer.

Chris Wessels: Because most of these part-time departments require you to work some semblance to some night shifts. My advice would be If you need to work part-time, first of all, in this economy, I know it's almost impossible, try to gear your lifestyle where you don't have to work a second job. But that's almost not even realistic. If you have to work a second job, do a trade where you can be home every night instead of working at another job where you're working overnight shifts. If you work overtime at the fire department, put that money into your family, not into toys Put it towards paying off your cars, paying off your bills, paying off your house. Any money you make working overtime, put it towards the good of your family, not towards toys. And lastly, whatever time you give to the fire department above and beyond. Give it back to your family. So if you go away to a training class and you're gone for three or four days, earmark some time to give your family that time back. You know, do something special. You know, when you listen to these military guys that deploy in combat, they'll tell you, we're not the ones that have it tough. It's our wives you know, m prime primarily wives, but sometimes husbands are the ones that have it tough. So when you're in the fire department and you invest all this time into the fire department, it's your spouse at home that's keeping the home fires burning that's got it way tougher than you It's a lot harder being at home keeping all that going, juggling acts, than it is being at the firehouse or at a training course. So I guess in summary, whatever you give the fire department above and beyond Carve away some time to give it to your family, especially your spouse. Make time. Do the date nights. Don't ever stop doing date nights, right?

Corley: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Chris Wessels: Yeah, you gotta do the date nights. And you know, Coral, I got the the the book. I haven't started the broken tools, I haven't started reading it yet, but When my hat came, I got the broken tools too. So and I would say that get broken tool for get get broken tools, you know. but again long-winded answer, but the bottom line is Our job is a blessing and a curse because we love it so much we're willing to take away from our family to serve our job. But just remember, you know, when you leave this job, People might tell a war story or two about you, but the job is going to replace you. Corley: Yeah. Chris Wessels: I had a buddy who got killed in his volunteer job fighting a structure fire in his profess his his career job. They replaced them. Matter of fact, they reused his position number. I know the guy that got his position number. You know, so your job isn't going to miss you, but your family is, right? Corley: Absolutely, man. Chris Wessels: And and I know I'm getting long-winded, but I'll say one more thing. All my buddies' kids were older by the time I had my first son. And when we, you know, I told all my friends Melissa was pregnant. After congratulations, the first thing every one of them told me is it goes by fast Yeah. It goes by fast. And remember all these special moments like Halloween costumes, Santa Claus, all that stuff, man, you have a short window, right? And they probably don't really get it to the like three and then by the time they hit three teens they're kinda they're over it right.

Corley: Oh yeah. Chris Wessels: Got a short window. And that's another thing I say the guys who have older kids Work a shift for that young guy. You know, work over Christmas morning so they can come in at noon and see the kids open the presents, right? Work a swap for them on Halloween so they can be their trick-or-treating and stuff like that. Corley: You know Love it. Brother, absolutely. You're you you you just encapsulated a lot of broken tools in that answer So you're gonna, yeah, absolutely. so there we go, man. I love it. You were, I love the windedness. I do, man. I love the stories. There were so many nuggets, so many timestamps. But this is my favorite part where I get to ask about books. You've already hit me with some book But I still want to ask the question book or books that you think firefighters should be reading? I'm gonna do that. Can I do one more thing? Oh, always, always. Chris Wessels: So in Auburn, they lost a firefighter in the late 70s. He's the first paramedic on the department, right? And this is this is a story about honoring our own. He's the first paramedic. Auburn started paramedic service in the late 70s you know, cutting edge department. You can do a whole podcast on how cutting edge the Auburn Fire Department was in Alabama. So when they got raised fund money through the Chamber of Commerce to get a rescue truck, this guy's name was Roger Brookshire. And he died on January 23rd, 1977. So that first rescue truck was called 2-3 Roger. And that was their radio call sign. It was a living memorial to that firefighter. So when they replaced it with a new rescue truck, this was in ninety eighty-five. I don't know if this is gonna show up or not. Probably not

Corley: I can see it mostly. I mean I see the see the rig. Chris Wessels: So on the hood of that on the door of that rig said two seven Roger. Well He was killed on he was born on September 27th. So every time someone saw that rig when it was in service, that door said 27 Roger, and every time they got on the radio, their call sign was 27 Roger. And to me, out of all the tributes I've seen seen for firefighters, it was one of the most touching to me and to be a part of that department. Of course it happened before I worked there because that was like a living memorial to this guy who gave his life trying to save someone else And I just I just wanted to share that because I thought it was just super awesome. Corley: You know, it is, man. I love brother. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Okay. Chris Wessels: Books. Books. Okay, I'm gonna go through quick. This was written by a lieutenant colonel, or excuse me, a colonel in the Marine Corps. The passion of command, the moral imperative of leadership. This guy. Corley: Passion of command, okay. Chris Wessels: Passion command. And by the dog ears on this one, you can tell it the mission.

Corley: That's a great, great. Top 10. Yeah, absolutely. The mission men and me is what he showed. I don't want to cut him off, sorry. Marcus Aurelius. Meditations, baby. Chris Wessels: All right. If you can get your hands on this bad b bad boy. Corley: Oh yeah. 20,000. Chris Wessels: and then of course everyone talks about tribe. That's a great book. And then these books I talked about earlier. You know, Champo, Anything by Vincent Dunn, anything by John Norman. this is the book This is what we study for our lieutenants and captain's test in Atlanta. Corley: Now is that a first edition? Chris Wessels: It is a let me see Let me tell you quick. It's it's been a good copyright 91. This might be a first edition. Corley: Look like it might. I don't know the artwork on Just by sight. Chris Wessels: Yeah, I think it is because it had like no artwork. Corley: awesome, bro. Yeah. Chris Wessels: I'm I'm gonna s actually send that to him to get it signed. He signed Corley: The the working with giants? Chris Wessels: Yeah, working with giants, you signed and said I'm gonna send that fire officers handbook because literally we We took our promotional test. Vincent Dunn's last latest one, Battlespace. I mean this guy has 80 still writing. This is one of my all-time favorites. Oh random thoughts. Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. To finalize it,. Some of it's dated, but it's still very very relevant.

Corley: Oh I promise you there's more relevance than there is dated, you know, and and and even the dated will give you perspective. Chris Wessels: Yes, for sure. For sure. Corley: Love it Love it. Which brings me to one of my favorite parts of the scrap. It is the five questions for firefighters version 3. 2. Chris, you know the rules, so I don't have to explain them. But for the audience there is no right or wrong answer. They're just Chris's opinion. And the points are arbitrary. They're assigned by me with the help of the audience. So my question to you is, are you ready for the Next five questions for firefighters version 3. 2. I'm ready, my friend. All right, here we go. Number one. What is the skill that has carried you through your fire service career? Chris Wessels: Some people might disagree with me on this, but I think humility, understanding that it's not your position, you're a steward of the position, and it's unloaned to you by the citizens of the city. And You can't be so cocky and arrogant that you're this chief or that captain or whatever because it's not your position. It's not loan to you. And especially most departments. You know, above captain is appointed anyway, right? So I think humility and also humility operationally. Don't think you're so great that bad crap can't happen to you

Corley: Well little A I I love the answer. Just you could just say humility end of end of story, but your explanation even better, especially when you tie it into operationally. Operational humility is is powerful. And I loved how you started with some people may disagree. Which shows a little humility right there. So yeah, 100s are flying by. Max points already. Woody C O D said. Max points already before his answers. Yeah, absolutely max points. And the audience agrees because 100 is they're smashing the 100 button. Max points and max points for the stewardship. 100%. Okay, one of my favorite questions. This has turned into probably my favorite question. I don't know if it's my favorite, but it's up there. It's job town. It's time. You're in route. You're responding. Think of the scene from backdraft where he slaps that tape into that. What song are you playing in route? Volbeat Warriors Call. Volbeat Warriors Call. I love it. And you might be the first I know you're the first person to put up a full beat. So You know what? Chris Wessels: This was the toughest question for because there's so many good songs. Corley: Oh dude, I can't answer it. I really can't.

Chris Wessels: But just the beat of that song and the just the way it starts You know. And it's it's old school too. Old school metal. Corley: Yeah. what is your favorite and max points by the way. So just to maybe just to be clear, but what is your favorite fire service tradition? Chris Wessels: Okay. I'm going to get the Sappy Award for this one. It's love. Everything, our whole service is built around love. The author Kurt Vonnegut said, I can think of no better symbol of man's humanity to man than that of a fire engine. And and we think about that and what that means, the way we treat each other, it's the the brotherhood, the love. I learned how to tell somebody I love you on the fire department You know, my dad was an old school World War II generation dad and you knew they loved you but they didn't always say it right. Yeah But but every the fire service is based on love. You know, breaking bread, going to help your brother, build a fence, all everything we do Corley: Dude, I love the and you get the Sappy Award, absolutely, but I'm I'm a Sappy dude and you get max points for me easy. And I think I know the audience will agree Agree. number four, this one's on the clock. You can see the clock. Hopefully. And that's it We get to ask you who are the four people that you would put on your Mount Rushmore of the fire service and go.

Chris Wessels: Two personal, two fire service wide. My first personal one is Deputy Chief Paul Byron Reeves. he was the one, the first person I met in the Auburn fire department. He opened the door and let me in the station. Next to my father, the biggest mentor of my life. The second would be Cortez Lawrence. He came to Auburn in an administrative role. He was smoke diver number one. He's the one that got Alabama smoke diver. And we went together. did a tremendous amount to mentor me and my profession early professional career. The other two are no brainers, Mike Lombardo and John Norman. And you have to there's no explanation read needed for those two guys. I was blessed enough to teach some Some fast classes early on with Lombardo. just incredible, incredible. Corley: Incredible, dude. One of the smartest people. Chris Wessels: yes, absolutely. So humble, so humble, such a gentleman. Corley: Amazing. in fact, he's coming back on in I actually had him scheduled for election night and he called and said, hey, that's election night. I don't think we should do a scrap on election night. I said, great catch, Chief. Let's so we're doing it the Sunday before election. So no, absolutely. But and I I love conversations with but anyway, yeah, dude. I love the I love the two personal. I love the and I can't argue with the two that you put up there. Absolutely max points for your Mount Rushmore, which brings us to heavy fire and searchable space. Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on the VES?

Chris Wessels: Again, easy for me. It's gonna be the nozzle. And the reason it's gonna be the nozzle is simply this. Everybody can't be in that limelight spot. I mean that's everybody wants to be the one to make the rescue. But if you're not making a push on that fire, it's gonna be that much tougher to make the rescue. And kind of like NASCAR, you got one driver, but you got a whole pit crew that's supporting that that driver and that car And somebody's gotta be willing to do the grunt work with the nozzle so that that whoever's on the on the the truck or the rescue or whoever's making the making the VES, making the search, you know, they gotta they gotta you gotta make sure that they can have tenable conditions make the search so it's gonna be the nozzle the other thing about that is to me there's nothing like getting that first hole punched in the ceiling and all you see is orange and then you punch that's just Corley: That big beautiful orange mixed the crew. Yes. Jason Beller said truck, truck, truck. No, minus 100. But no. Max points, five for five. There it is. The five questions for firefighters. According to Chris Wessels, Todd Edwards said, I'm surprised. Max points. Oh, there you go. There you go.

Chris Wessels: See, Todd's giving me a hard time because I spent time on the on the squad Right on. He's an engine god. Todd. He spent some time in a truck, but he's an engine god. Corley: Josh Everett said, Sam, invite Chief Rhodes and Edwards to the after party. I'll send them invites, absolutely, because they might actually roast. That'd be funny if they actually roasted weather That'd be awesome. There you go. That officially makes it 258 scraps in the books. Chris Wessels, thank you for being with us this evening. If someone wants to get a hold of you, get more information, pick your brain, what's the best way to do so? Chris Wessels: I'm on Instagram. it's C H W E S S four and I added a underscore firefighter ethos ethos. My email, I've got gmail at firefighterethos at gmail. com. I I'd I'd give out a phone number for text. I don't know if people do that or that might be a bad idea. I don't know Corley: People do it. I don't know if it's a bad idea. They've never called back and said, oh, that I can't I shouldn't have done that. So that's up to you.

Chris Wessels: I sell numbers 404-725-6016. So yeah, however anybody wants to get a hold of me, those are probably the three. Corley: You can officially roast him with that's what we do. We get them to say their number, then we send inappropriate pictures. go to firehousevigilance. com. This just you know you can now join the vigilantes annually Frank Lee, one of the best dudes on the planet, was our featured VIP guest last week on our forum. And it was awesome. It was so amazing just to pick his brain it's kind of like the after party but it's a vip guest that comes in and we just bombard them with questions it's kind of like a scrap but you're there asking questions but if you want to be a part become a vigilante one of the cool parts about being a vigilante is of course the after party where we get to show up and we get to roast Chris and it's going to be amazing. So next week and and by the way no they never roast the guest it's like a running gag now It's just the way it is. Next week, it's Arthur Ashley. He's never afraid to say what's on his mind. So it could be interesting. I'm not sure if it's a if it's we'll see. We'll see. then the Week after that, on August 19th, episode 260 of the scrap. It has never been done in the history of the scrap. Five years in the making. August 19th, episode 260. It's happening. I'm and that's all you get. That's the teaser. I want people to try and guess that what it's going to be, what the surprises want to be. I want to hear your theories and that's enough jabbering for me. Let's get to the after party. Thank you once again, Chris Wessels, for sharing your evening with us and being such a phenomenal guest.

Chris Wessels: Corley, my honor. I am humbled. I'm humbled. It's just it's been a great experience. I I truly am appreciative. you know, I'm retired, but it's nice to still stay in touch and you know, if I can pass along a nugget or two. It's just it's humbling and very appreciative. Corley: Brother, you did you did tonight. I assure you. The stories were amazing. The nuggets were amazing. And it's awesome. Audience, of course, you make the scrap magical. Thank you for tuning in each and every week and asking the asking the questions. Because without you Man, the scrap doesn't exist. So thank you for tuning in live and making it happen. It's magical. Thank you. Remember, mutts don't scrap. I hope the tones stay silent unless it is burning. Stay safe out there